Forums as a good pyrotech resource?

[DrJones]

I share the thoughts of another pyrotechnist:

"There seems to be a trend among new pyro hobbyists to rely on forums as their primary source for learning. This is a mistake and an inefficient use of time, as forums are unstructured and filled with diversions, debate and participants of unknown qualifications whom the beginner will not be able to distinguish from an expert. Forums are difficult to search and do not provide information in a controlled, logical format the way well written articles do. Forums are for those who already have a handle on the basics to further discuss the details, but are inferior and sometimes even dangerous for acquiring the basics."

Comments?

Edward

[Carbon796]

Pretty accurate.

 

There's also a physical skill, that goes with pyrotechnics. One that has to be learned from doing. You can't learn that from a fourm. You can be guided on how to learn it. If one asks the right questions. Or properly describes an issue. But, you have to physically participate, repeatedly to acquire it, to develop it. Arm chair pyro's won't be able to help you with that.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Carbon796

[SharkWhisperer]

I share the thoughts of another pyrotechnist:

 

"There seems to be a trend among new pyro hobbyists to rely on forums as their primary source for learning. This is a mistake and an inefficient use of time, as forums are unstructured and filled with diversions, debate and participants of unknown qualifications whom the beginner will not be able to distinguish from an expert. Forums are difficult to search and do not provide information in a controlled, logical format the way well written articles do. Forums are for those who already have a handle on the basics to further discuss the details, but are inferior and sometimes even dangerous for acquiring the basics."

 

Comments?

 

Edward

I agree with that opinion, very generally, though, but what are the options for an aspiring pyrotechnician, particularly if they have a limited science background? I believe most resort to YouTube or similar. Where chemistry is either not well-known, expected, or used. Kitchen recipes that you can usually get away with, but that one time that you don't, or make a mistake you didn't realize was a mistake... Seems a recipe for (potential) disaster. Ideally, young/new pyros would have access (and supplies) for one-on-one hands-on training, from the very beginning. For many that's not really necessary; for others it could be a life-saver. Can you differentiate this on an online forum? Probably not. Is a local mentor available? Possibly not. Once you have a basic chemistry knowledge, a full appreciation of the dangers of energetic formulations (hard to self-teach), and proper and consistent use of PPE (common sense guidelines broken all the time, including amongst decades-experienced fireworkers), then things become instantly risk-mitigated. But this doesn't happen by itself, playing with energetic materials is not typical day-to-day tasks for most people, and some people, particularly "immortal" younguns, will continue to feel immortal. So I believe that these open forums are vital to demonstrating, discussing, and abetting safe fireworking practices, especially amongst the newcomers who easily garner a false sense of safety from the many YouTube videos and tutorials that just wouldn't pass basic safety muster. And there is a wealth of published information available (although this site in my opinion could expand it's downloadable content and give more attention to basic tutorials) here and elsewhere. It's hard to refer somebody to Pyrobin when you know 1/3 is very useful for fireworking,1/3 is overtechnical for many readers, and 1/3 is ridiculously dangerous advice such as the never-going-away stuff like "The New James Bond" books. Room for improvement? Of course. The cat's meow with all of the important information available? Of course not. But a good addition to the other learning options, websites included, that currently exist.

[SeaMonkey]

At used book stores or thrift stores one is occasionally able to locate a

set of encylopedia published in the 40s or 50s or early 60s.

 

Some of them are good sources of technical details for the production

of Chemicals or the learning about Pyrotechnic subjects.

 

A Handbook of Chemistry from those early years often contains information

which is otherwise difficult to find.

 

The Internet Archive and other archive web sites often have available for

download old Chemistry Textbooks long out of print.

 

Yes, as DrJones mentioned elsewhere, in the 50s nearly every chemical needed

for Pyro Experimentation could be obtained at the local pharmacy or drug store.

 

My local Pharmacist always asked what I intended to do with the Potassium

Chlorate and seemed satisfied when I told him I was going to use it to make

Oxygen.

 

Of course, there is no doubt, that he really knew what I was up to...

[DrJones]

After all is said and done, I regard all pyrotechnic formulae "a recipe for (potential) disaster."

I will always regard "basic chemistry, and PPE" plus "thinking you have risk-mitigated" the hazards is also a recipe for disaster. The moment I imagine I've mitigated my risks, and fully understand what's happening, is the moment a disaster is most likely to occur: Murphy was an optimist.

Am I mitigating a disaster by declaring on this forum "everything to do with flashpowder is deadly dangerous"? Or by repeating for the umpteenth-time that " -ClO3 does not play well with sulphur"?

I wrote a Safety Manual for amateur rocketeers, covering most aspects of propellant hazards, from a chemical point of view; it sold more than 10,000 copies on Amazon and eBay, and thru my website. Safety and hazard information are more widely available than are sensitive flashpowder formulation recipes, I think. Perhaps the forum deserves a SAFETY WITH PYRO section. Right now, it appears that some hazard warning appear on each and every section, often several times per topic. Well and good. But what newbie will read rapidly, not fully grasping the big picture, and blow themselves to smithereens with ordinary niter and brimstone?

Are we here "our brothers keepers"? Can we possible describe or even mention every single hazard in every stage of the instructions?

Hodgdon sells Pyrodex and various high-energy propellants almost worldwide. Each can or bottle mentions a few of the hazards. By no means does Hodgdon, or DuPont, or Hercules, attempt or intend to cover every risk inherent in the contents. Nor does Colt or S&W or Winchester or Marlin. Should they cover every possible risk to life or limb?

There's something to "Darwin's Law," in my NSHO.

I regret losing access to simple elemental reagents because we're protecting idiots or morons from self-destruction. How come Rexall doesn't stock KNO3 any more, or sulphur, or charcoal? Will glycerin disappear and become taboo because it's easily nitrated? How about cellulose, and cotton, and paper than can be made to flash? Lycopodium powder can be a severe hazard as well. Will HNO3 be on a forbidden list soon, or later?

Momma, don't take my red phosphorus away!

Who remembers when NH4NO3 was a common fertilizer sold widely for pennies a pound?

Now heat that stuff gently and you'll get N2O, something to laugh about.

Edward

[SharkWhisperer]

 

After all is said and done, I regard all pyrotechnic formulae "a recipe for (potential) disaster."

I will always regard "basic chemistry, and PPE" plus "thinking you have risk-mitigated" the hazards is also a recipe for disaster. The moment I imagine I've mitigated my risks, and fully understand what's happening, is the moment a disaster is most likely to occur: Murphy was an optimist.

Am I mitigating a disaster by declaring on this forum "everything to do with flashpowder is deadly dangerous"? Or by repeating for the umpteenth-time that " -ClO3 does not play well with sulphur"?

I wrote a Safety Manual for amateur rocketeers, covering most aspects of propellant hazards, from a chemical point of view; it sold more than 10,000 copies on Amazon and eBay, and thru my website. Safety and hazard information are more widely available than are sensitive flashpowder formulation recipes, I think. Perhaps the forum deserves a SAFETY WITH PYRO section. Right now, it appears that some hazard warning appear on each and every section, often several times per topic. Well and good. But what newbie will read rapidly, not fully grasping the big picture, and blow themselves to smithereens with ordinary niter and brimstone?

Are we here "our brothers keepers"? Can we possible describe or even mention every single hazard in every stage of the instructions?

Hodgdon sells Pyrodex and various high-energy propellants almost worldwide. Each can or bottle mentions a few of the hazards. By no means does Hodgdon, or DuPont, or Hercules, attempt or intend to cover every risk inherent in the contents. Nor does Colt or S&W or Winchester or Marlin. Should they cover every possible risk to life or limb?

There's something to "Darwin's Law," in my NSHO.

I regret losing access to simple elemental reagents because we're protecting idiots or morons from self-destruction. How come Rexall doesn't stock KNO3 any more, or sulphur, or charcoal? Will glycerin disappear and become taboo because it's easily nitrated? How about cellulose, and cotton, and paper than can be made to flash? Lycopodium powder can be a severe hazard as well. Will HNO3 be on a forbidden list soon, or later?

Momma, don't take my red phosphorus away!

Who remembers when NH4NO3 was a common fertilizer sold widely for pennies a pound?

Now heat that stuff gently and you'll get N2O, something to laugh about.

Edward

 

I think perhaps you have additional issues. You are essentially begging/requesting, today and on your website, a $2000 Go-Fund-Me begger's donation for your "company" to promote your development processes. Am I in any way mistaken? You are a bright huckster. And a bright wash-out. I dug a little deeper into your prior "team", and expect you'd prefer I didn't publish those responses (there are many, so far--seems you were quite the ass). You got fired? Maybe rumor, but address it--your earlier compatriots don't like you .At all.. Which is why you're fishing the shallow water for investment income? An old idiot is identical to a young idiot, with the sorry addendum that age does not = smarts. Your website is seeking "$2k" assistace to keep moving on? You low-balled yourself.And i just made a few calls. And you are a guaranteed/documented huckter--your "credentials" have been disclaimed by your former "colleagues". Vefiriable. You NEVER worked for NASA or anything related. You were in the "Jetex" era, aka 1950-1960 or close. Wow. Your links to websites that declare your vast knowledge into APCP./composite propellants? They're silly, and mostly asking for cash donations.

 

I WILL investigate you further, as amusement permits, especially your professed university degrees--doesn't much matter but wouldn't doubt you inflate your value/accomplishments. We'll find out. If an apology is is in order, I'll be first in line. But I think you're an ageing huckster who is begging dollars online (2k?!?) for your last gasps.

 

Am sure you're a bright dude, but zero confidence in you practical experience or capabilities.

 

Sorry, you put out what you put out.

 

SW

[SharkWhisperer]

 

After all is said and done, I regard all pyrotechnic formulae "a recipe for (potential) disaster."

I will always regard "basic chemistry, and PPE" plus "thinking you have risk-mitigated" the hazards is also a recipe for disaster. The moment I imagine I've mitigated my risks, and fully understand what's happening, is the moment a disaster is most likely to occur: Murphy was an optimist.

Am I mitigating a disaster by declaring on this forum "everything to do with flashpowder is deadly dangerous"? Or by repeating for the umpteenth-time that " -ClO3 does not play well with sulphur"?

I wrote a Safety Manual for amateur rocketeers, covering most aspects of propellant hazards, from a chemical point of view; it sold more than 10,000 copies on Amazon and eBay, and thru my website. Safety and hazard information are more widely available than are sensitive flashpowder formulation recipes, I think. Perhaps the forum deserves a SAFETY WITH PYRO section. Right now, it appears that some hazard warning appear on each and every section, often several times per topic. Well and good. But what newbie will read rapidly, not fully grasping the big picture, and blow themselves to smithereens with ordinary niter and brimstone?

Are we here "our brothers keepers"? Can we possible describe or even mention every single hazard in every stage of the instructions?

Hodgdon sells Pyrodex and various high-energy propellants almost worldwide. Each can or bottle mentions a few of the hazards. By no means does Hodgdon, or DuPont, or Hercules, attempt or intend to cover every risk inherent in the contents. Nor does Colt or S&W or Winchester or Marlin. Should they cover every possible risk to life or limb?

There's something to "Darwin's Law," in my NSHO.

I regret losing access to simple elemental reagents because we're protecting idiots or morons from self-destruction. How come Rexall doesn't stock KNO3 any more, or sulphur, or charcoal? Will glycerin disappear and become taboo because it's easily nitrated? How about cellulose, and cotton, and paper than can be made to flash? Lycopodium powder can be a severe hazard as well. Will HNO3 be on a forbidden list soon, or later?

Momma, don't take my red phosphorus away!

Who remembers when NH4NO3 was a common fertilizer sold widely for pennies a pound?

Now heat that stuff gently and you'll get N2O, something to laugh about.

Edward

 

Sorry, but old dude, with all due respect, I truly believe that you have some worrisome mental considerations that mitigate your safety in pyro science. I am very sorry and feel badly stating this, but you do not seem evenly balanced, mentally so, to be working with, and especially tutoring use of, energetic compositions.

 

I do appreciate your pedigree and education. But they are not related in any way to recent diatribes, several (like mine perhaps) were completely off-target. Apologies for mine.

 

You're 81 y/o old dude, with zero current affiliation with any national or hobbyist rocketry groups. Touting the fact that you're standing next to a Propulsion Lab structure in a photo does not associate it with you in any way (your ties evaporated)? C'mon. Public knowledge. The internet and all that. Suggest you locate your "first" online resumes available worldwide, as I have, before I post them as an example.

 

Your Rocketry "Foundation" website is now begging for a 2k "donation" (not 2 million; 2 k?!?!) for chems for you to make new propellants. I'm sorry, but that underestimation reflects directly on any potential interests' opinion of you own self-worth. Which, for some reason (I expect naivity), you have severely underestimated). This is Business 101, ffs. Your "Foundations" doesn't have much of a business plans. If you retain any old "friends" from work, it's likely out of pity. They probably don't exist. More like a hobby you cannot support on SSI (not meant to be a slight). C'mon, amigo. You did well. You've lived long. You're smart. You know chemistry (and pissed people off by wasting their time while you played stupid on some early posts to a pyro forums). You retained your interests. Be realistic. Join us at some launches, maybe? Wishing you the best.

Edited March 18, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[DrJones]

I'll share a quote from Mr Ned Gorski:

"A quote I recently heard struck a nerve: "I can't control much of what happens around me, but I can control my response to it." I'm going to work on that.

I founded this community with a focus on the spirit of camaraderie which can bring us together in our common interest in Fireworking. I want to stay focused on that Spirit.

I'd ask others to try to do the same. Disagreeing occasionally doesn't require being disagreeable. Emotions arise, but we don't have to act out of them. There's simply too much of that going on nowadays, and it just turns life ugly."

[SharkWhisperer]

I'll share a quote from Mr Ned Gorski:

 

"A quote I recently heard struck a nerve: "I can't control much of what happens around me, but I can control my response to it." I'm going to work on that.

I founded this community with a focus on the spirit of camaraderie which can bring us together in our common interest in Fireworking. I want to stay focused on that Spirit.

I'd ask others to try to do the same. Disagreeing occasionally doesn't require being disagreeable. Emotions arise, but we don't have to act out of them. There's simply too much of that going on nowadays, and it just turns life ugly."

You've directly addressed nothing brought into question on my last post. Primarily your expansive "Foundations"s Go-Fund-Me request for a paltry $2000 donation for chems/equipment, for your propellant research furthering. That's a stupid silly lowball request. Why, with your "pedigree" and solid foundation and knowledge base wouldn't you be soliciting $20 million from venture capitalists? I'll answer that for you. Because you were a discredited (documents available--don't push it) low-end scientist who made bad career choices (documents also available--test me) and are trying to remain relevant in your own eyes while the like of Aerotech have already eclipsed any of you potentially "novel" findings.You're essentially done. So enjoy what remains, ffs. Happy to donate some motors--have hundreds...rockets, too. Get out of your delusional fog. If you had ANY serious backing,intellectual or financial, you would not be slutting about for a mere 2k financial donation goal, ffs. Who would take that seriously, and it's available for all to see? You're delusional, businesswise.

 

And though perhaps 10-15% of us at APC also use Ned's site (it's good), I'm not sure he'd appreciate your quoting him in this context as agreeable to him.

 

"Young dreamers/idiots/assholes turn into old dreamers/idiots/assholes". Paraphrased, but pretty much true. You should know the source.

 

I do not dislike you--I do not even know you. But I do not respect your approaches towards reaching your purported goals. Lofty and unrealistic. I hope you learn some decent pyro techniques and can gain sufficient satisfaction if pleasingly painting the sky with your personal airbrush.

 

Your "pedigree/actual employment tasks" has been overturned--please do not make me post supporting documents--I do not wish to, but if challenged will immediately embarrass you to no end, verifiably and irreparably. Your website stated request for $2000 in donations for equipment/reagents for your "Foundation" is laughable, but plucks a heartstring when we see your posted photos of your inadequate rusty hydraulic press for making propellant grains, but reeks of rank amateurishness.

 

You're a smart dude. Perhaps with a lot to offer. But you're winning no favors for your imaginary company, or your reputation, when you ask imbecile questions about sparklers and salutes.

 

I wish you the best.

 

Edited: This opinion piece has absolutely no relevance in the Pyrotechnics forum, and was erroneously placed here in the first place.

Edited March 18, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[SeaMonkey]

SharkWhisperer,

 

I wish you were a smart dude.

 

Your words reveal much about your inner workings.

 

You may be showing us entirely too much about your needs.

[SharkWhisperer]

 

I wrote a Safety Manual for amateur rocketeers, covering most aspects of propellant hazards, from a chemical point of view; it sold more than 10,000 copies on Amazon and eBay, and thru my website.

 

 

I am an avid amateur rocketeer. For decades. Never heard of your widespread "Safety Manual", and can't seem to locate it on a simple Google search. Nobody I've queried on rocketry forums knows you. NAR/Tripoli lifers. Never heard of you or your "Safety Manual". There are many Ed Jones selling books on Amazon, but your Safety Manual does not appear in a casual search. You are adept at name-dropping and self-congratulations, but your validity and claims remain dubious. And what type of extreme abuse/neglect was required to completely rust out your hydraulic press in the dry NM desert air? Does your Research "Institute" have a business plan?

 

[BetICouldMake1]

I'll tell you what's not a good resource: this thread.

[Arthur]

The web is full of information, some incorrect, some libelous or slanderous and some truly inspired original thought based on sound science. Finding the good stuff is hard but nowadays is an essential part of the search for good science. However printed books are also also very important, usually their authors are much more careful with explanations.

Forums are part of the web but a distillation of everything said about the general www. some material and authors are more helpful than others.

[BetICouldMake1]

Ok, I'll do more than just troll.

 

July will mark my 3 year pyro anniversary. In that time I've gone from building mediocre festival balls to (what I would consider) fairly respectable cylinder shells, including several large multi-break shells. I learned how to cook my own charcoal, make good bp and black match, how to cut stars and make other garnitures, and how to make bp, strobe, and whistle rockets. Forums, and the people I've met through them, were and are my main resource for learning about pyro and progressing as a builder.

 

During the last 3 years I've also seen many new builders enter the fold. Many, like me, make easy progress building off the knowledge base and support forums provide. The ones that fail seem to have a lot of things in common: They come to pryo expecting things to be easy, they ask bad questions and respond negatively to answers they don't want to hear. They give up after failures, or worse, they fail repeatedly because they're too stubborn to follow advice given by more experiences pyros.

 

Forums are just a group of people with a shared interest. Like any group there's gonna be some smart guys and some dumb guys. And yeah, sometimes those idiots are louder than the rest of the crowd. There's gonna be some genuinely helpful folks, and there's gonna be some assholes.

 

Personally, I try to be a helpful asshole, so here's some advice: If your skin's not thick enough to handle a totally unknown person talking some shit on the internet, turn off your computer, and if your critical thinking skills are too poor to sift through the information available on a pyro forum you probably shouldn't be building explosives.

[ronmoper76]

I share the thoughts of another pyrotechnist:

 

"There seems to be a trend among new pyro hobbyists to rely on forums as their primary source for learning. This is a mistake and an inefficient use of time, as forums are unstructured and filled with diversions, debate and participants of unknown qualifications whom the beginner will not be able to distinguish from an expert. Forums are difficult to search and do not provide information in a controlled, logical format the way well written articles do. Forums are for those who already have a handle on the basics to further discuss the details, but are inferior and sometimes even dangerous for acquiring the basics."

 

Comments?,

 

Edward

yeah really!!! The easy shit can be found anywhere,the stuff you actually need info about you never get. It's just a bunch of dick measuring,quarreling,or plain disrespect. This forum is littered with it,you can find evidence every several post and its been going on a LOOOONG time. Look back through history 10 years ago and its the same garbage. A book doesn't shove that crap down your throat,which is how it seems on here a lot.. I felt singled out admittedly at first but a few weeks of combing this place and the toxic shit pops everywhere. A couple of these dudes need punched in the throat so they can't speak anymore. I learned some of my most important lessons from dumb luck or repeated failures and testing because people wont allow others to ask THOSE questions and certainly wont give a helpful response.this should never be. Every aspect should be taught and explained if need be not just what some one picks and chooses,its like sending you to war with a gun and no bullets. Im stll gonna fight bullets or no bullets,im just gonna die faster because someone else is a asshole! What one can most guarantee to get is,ridicule,bad attitudes,juvenile comments,sometimes just ignorant fucks that just wanna run their mouths..

Its not even worth asking most of the time in forums,dude was right about the books. I

Edited March 25, 2021 by ronmoper76

[justvisiting]

Geez, here I thought it was great information a member just delivered to help with the strobe issue, and maybe a thank you was gonna happen. But: this. While this complaint is made, excellent help on his issue has been provided. I'm really glad that guy shared the misidentification problem on the barium sulfate here with us on this forum, even though I don't have issues with my rockets- right now

[ChrisPer]

I have spent maybe 20 years on other forums, and search and browse have given me a lot that I needed to get where I want to go.

 

This forum has great info, yes and contradictions in places. But what is said above about having to learn from doing is right in my eyes. It doesn't matter that some writers are full of it; we greybeards should be able to figure it out after a while reading.

[ronmoper76]

Geez, here I thought it was great information a member just delivered to help with the strobe issue, and maybe a thank you was gonna happen. But: this. While this complaint is made, excellent help on his issue has been provided. I'm really glad that guy shared the misidentification problem on the barium sulfate here with us on this forum, even though I don't have issues with my rockets- right now

The borax thing sucked and i do appreciate that. In fact i probably never would have if it wasn't for you guys. I wasted time and materials to build exploding sticks,lol Some of you guys are great and you have many years of tips,tricks,and experience that can't be bought or read in a book somewhere. This forum is probably one of the best resources I have found out there actually,it's just monotonous sometimes.Dr Jones hit the nail right on the head i'm sad to say.......90% of this hobby is dangerous and can kill you,you shouldn't have to repeat that 10 times a day. People just get ridiculous with it,to many opinions and not enough answers. If you don't like milling metals or using magnesium or potassium permanganate,or chlorates,etc

Great everyone is happy for you,it's your right. But don't kick another guy in the balls all day because he likes to do differently. Shut your mouth and move on,they treat everyone substandard,like a child! "But why dad...????

It doesn't matter why,shut your mouth or go to your room,if i say its wrong ITS WRONG!!!" That is the narrative in this place so many times over. They like to hide all the answers behind smoke and mirrors.