Antimony trisulfide in salutes

[DrJones]

Having studied dozens of flash formulae, from very old to rather new compositions, I note they seem to fall into two/three groups:

-without Sb2S3

-with Sb2S3 (and/or S)

Pray tell, exactly how does Sb2S3 contribute to flash reports? How about the sometimes added S?

 

Thanks! Edward

[SharkWhisperer]

Having studied dozens of flash formulae, from very old to rather new compositions, I note they seem to fall into two/three groups:

 

-without Sb2S3

-with Sb2S3 (and/or S)

 

 

 

Pray tell, exactly how does Sb2S3 contribute to flash reports? How about the sometimes added S?

 

Thanks! Edward

If you're a lifetime propellant expert, it would be pretty much expected that you'd have background knowledge on the basic chem queries (sulfides/sulfur; ping pong NC, salute semantics) you made before introducing yourself in the Intros section. Perhaps this presumption is incorrect, and you're branching into new areas of fireworking.

 

If so, you have my apologies for misinterpreting your approach. And welcome.

 

We can always use new experts on composite propellants here--there are not many, and if you've truly decided to branch into fireworking besides your historical experience, then there's a lot you can learn.

 

SW

Edited March 16, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[DrJones]

Anyone have scientific or chemical info on my query about antimony trisulfide in salutes?

I hope to hear from any pyrotechnists. (Personal opinions and assessments of other members seems irrelevant on this forum. Maybe I missed the Best Practices or Due Diligence in Posting guidelines?)

I wish to learn more about when and why Sb2S3 is appropriate for salutes. Thanks!

Edw Jones
New Mexico

[ronmoper76]

Don't even bother asking,you wont get any useful information. This forum is full of assholes who answer questions with assumptions and accusations. You will be told,don't do that,its illegal,its dangerous,your a idiot,your a boomer, blah bla bla Out of the whole forum i can count on one hand how many guys will not act like a smartass,talk shit,or just be a blatant asshole. I have the same question but i would never ask it here,it's not worth the hassle of dealing with all the obnoxious opinions. Someone actually told me a while back, "everyone is chill here ,just dont bring up whistle or flash topics with anyone,you will get flamed" Thats when i laughed and replied"I have been building 3lb whistle rockets for a few months now,Its what i am currently working on,what the hell else would i want or need to talk about." That pretty much summed up this forum for me in a nutshell. Each motor takes almost a quarter lb of whistle fuel to build,I go through 20lb bags of the shit and your trying to tell me i can talk about anything i want but whistle fuel or flash,THE very TWO THINGS I USE IN EVERY rocket/mortar i build...SMH The funniest part of it all is i have a dozen actual questions i would love to ask,learn more about,but i pick and choose what i ask here. The stuff the rest of us actually need help with,no one is gonna answer or help with,they wont even be polite about how they answer either.

Edited March 16, 2021 by ronmoper76

[Carbon796]

Having studied dozens of flash formulae, from very old to rather new compositions, I note they seem to fall into two/three groups:

 

-without Sb2S3

-with Sb2S3 (and/or S)

 

 

 

Pray tell, exactly how does Sb2S3 contribute to flash reports? How about the sometimes added S?

 

Thanks! Edward

They both increase the sensitivity of the comp.

 

They both increase the density of the comp.

 

They both increase the rate of decomposition/deflageration.

[Mumbles]

I'd agree with the first and last statement Carbon. I have nothing concrete to back this up, but my impression was always that sulfur decreased the density. It's commonly used to make more economical flash powder. I have always been under the impression this was a combination of replacing some of the expensive aluminum with the very cheap sulfur, as well as making the composition less dense.

 

Sounds like we may need to do some tests. You know, for science and stuff.

[DrJones]

Thank Pyromaniac for your accurate assessment of comments here. Alas. After seeking some of the mindless and silly comments to simple, genuine questions, I'd *NOT* want to mix propellants among such easily-distracted ego-deficient "people." Happily, I've never met such mindlessness in decades of work as a professional at White Sands, Aerojet, NASA, or JPL. Hopefully I'll get some intelligent, responsible answers to my "foolish questions." All the best, Edward

[Carbon796]

I had thought about touching on that point, but initially chose not to. It can definitely cheapen the mix potentially. I've seen two different sulfur types. One is a paler yellow, what seems like finely ground, and is somewhat "fluffy". It is relatively fluid, it flows well. I can see this variety being less dense.

 

The last few sacks I've bought, have been a denser, clumpy material, that does not flow at all. It is a brighter deeper yellow. My intial impression is that it my be more dense, than at least the IBA. Though I've never actually checked it. In this case it may not end up being cheaper, depending on how it effects the loading density. So yes, some tests may be in order

Edited March 16, 2021 by Carbon796

[Richtee]

So yes, some tests may be in order

Wheee! LOL....

 

I use the trisulfide in a .22 caliber sensitive “active target” application. It definitely increases shock/impact sensitivity, and I notice no difference from straight 70/30 perc/dark Al formula as far as “power”.

 

I can’t think why one would use it in a salute, however. I’d deem it riskier than it oughter be.

[Carbon796]

Antimony is traditionally more often used in smaller reports. Like for crossette break charges, where it also helps to dim the light output. And, lambetti inserts, where loading density and speed of deflageration can be an advantage.

[SeaMonkey]

The traditional Cap mixtures for Cartridges or Muzzle-Loaders generally use

Antimony Trisulfide with Potassium Chlorate as the Oxidizer, with several

other ingredients.

 

Either Sulfur or Antimony Trisulfide is used in those mixtures to increase their

sensitivity to Percussion or Impact for most reliable ignition by either the firing

pin or the hammer.

 

I've not ever seen any sort of chemical analysis of why or how it increases the

sensitivity of the mixes.

 

It is well known though that the presence of Sulfur or certain Sulfides in Pyro

Mixes makes them more sensitive too, to both ignition temperature and to

impact. Especially where Chlorate or Perchlorate is the Oxidizer.

[tenneyguy]

Don't even bother asking,you wont get any useful information. This forum is full of assholes who answer questions with assumptions and accusations. You will be told,don't do that,its illegal,its dangerous,your a idiot,your a boomer, blah bla bla Out of the whole forum i can count on one hand how many guys will not act like a smartass,talk shit,or just be a blatant asshole. I have the same question but i would never ask it here,it's not worth the hassle of dealing with all the obnoxious opinions. Someone actually told me a while back, "everyone is chill here ,just dont bring up whistle or flash topics with anyone,you will get flamed" Thats when i laughed and replied"I have been building 3lb whistle rockets for a few months now,Its what i am currently working on,what the hell else would i want or need to talk about." That pretty much summed up this forum for me in a nutshell. Each motor takes almost a quarter lb of whistle fuel to build,I go through 20lb bags of the shit and your trying to tell me i can talk about anything i want but whistle fuel or flash,THE very TWO THINGS I USE IN EVERY rocket/mortar i build...SMH The funniest part of it all is i have a dozen actual questions i would love to ask,learn more about,but i pick and choose what i ask here. The stuff the rest of us actually need help with,no one is gonna answer or help with,they wont even be polite about how they answer either.

 

I was as polite as possible giving you the "like"! Beyond that, I will not pretend to know Jack Shit about whistles, milling, or pressing, except for steam locomotive whistles, Bridgeport Milling Machines, or axle presses.

[Kevisima]

The addition of Sulfur and Antimony Trisulfide to flash powder is used to increase the deep and heavy percussive effects of salutes.

I've tried both in exactly equal salutes and there is NO QUESTION that the binary flash is much less impressive, I'd say about 50% less, than the 4 component mix. It does increase sensitivity too so I'd research it before using it in aerial shells but for ground salutes it's A-OK.

The ORIGINAL cherry bomb mixture included Ant. Tri. & S.. There's several formulas on the web. That was all it took for me to use the 4 part composition over the binary from then on.

Always use a mask when handling these chemicals because they are poisonous. This includes Al. I use gloves as well. No way do I want these metals in my body and neither do you!

Happy trails.

[Richtee]

Interesting... found the formula for “MC 341”- billed as “Mil-spec M80 simulator” and it contains both the trisufide and sulfur. Formula’s 64 Kperc, 10S, 3.5Tsulfide and 22.5 darkAl.

 

I’d have to think that mix is fairly touchy...

[Kevisima]

No doubt. What convinced me to use it was my indirect experience as a boy in the 1960s. Literally thousands of white salute boxes of 72 count were all over every fireworks store and stand in Dixie. People put them in their hot car trunks and drove around in all that heat and bumpy 2 lane highway roads without incident. As long as the fuse wasn't lit, they were safe. These salutes had 1 to 5 grams of this mix inside and were very stable.

Again, I wouldn't want to load 45, 55, 65 and up grams of charge into an aerial shell without researching it 1st and using all necessary precautions, but I do think the lighter loads are safe, no to mention that it does conserve the 3 micron AL powder that can be expensive and attention getting when ordering over 2lbs.

Party on dudes!

[SharkWhisperer]

No doubt. What convinced me to use it was my indirect experience as a boy in the 1960s. Literally thousands of white salute boxes of 72 count were all over every fireworks store and stand in Dixie. People put them in their hot car trunks and drove around in all that heat and bumpy 2 lane highway roads without incident. As long as the fuse wasn't lit, they were safe. These salutes had 1 to 5 grams of this mix inside and were very stable.

Again, I wouldn't want to load 45, 55, 65 and up grams of charge into an aerial shell without researching it 1st and using all necessary precautions, but I do think the lighter loads are safe, no to mention that it does conserve the 3 micron AL powder that can be expensive and attention getting when ordering over 2lbs.

Party on dudes!

Sulfur's a cheap addition. Antimony trisulfide, not so much; excellent pyro Al is cheaper than antimony trisulfide.

 

And there's many chem reliable vendors who don't subscribe to 2-lb annual "limits" for dark flake Al, or report personal info and purchase histories on sales to strangers--most, except Firefox of course...

 

Careful with the sensitizers. It's not just chlorates that they sensitize, though that's usually stated as the biggest practical concern. Also increases perc-based comp's friction sensitivity; probably impact sensitivity, too, though less than with chlorates.

[ronmoper76]

i have been trying different formulas in search of different colors or something extremely bright for a aerial salute. I stumbled across this one claiming to be very bright and good in larger devices

.3gBarium Nitrate Ba (NO3) 2

3g Potassium Perchlorate KClO4

3g Homemade Magnesium 50:50 40 microns

1g Sulfur

Let me tell you something,i about crapped my pants from 1/4 teaspoon on a piece of toilet paper. It needs zero confinement and is frightening as far as i'm concerned.

I never seen something so hot,not even magnalium,Im moving on to something else at this point because its not suitable for what i wanna do but for something extremely small i think it deserves mention somewhere, i got it from https://mx5-kevin.blogspot.com/

[Uarbor]

Wheee! LOL....

 

I use the trisulfide in a .22 caliber sensitive active target application. It definitely increases shock/impact sensitivity, and I notice no difference from straight 70/30 perc/dark Al formula as far as power.

 

I cant think why one would use it in a salute, however. Id deem it riskier than it oughter be.

I was wondering if you were adding the trisulfide to a copper oxide thermite type composition? I have been trying to make Rimfire sensitive targets for a while now using copper oxide thermite and sensitizing it with Sulphur but it's really only Dependable with 22 magnum. Another trick I have been attempting is putting a piece of sandpaper inside the target to increase the friction. But I still can't get dependable ignition with normal velocity Long Rifle. Would you care to share any tips?

[SharkWhisperer]

 

i have been trying different formulas in search of different colors or something extremely bright for a aerial salute. I stumbled across this one claiming to be very bright and good in larger devices

.3gBarium Nitrate Ba (NO3) 2

3g Potassium Perchlorate KClO4

3g Homemade Magnesium 50:50 40 microns

1g Sulfur

Let me tell you something,i about crapped my pants from 1/4 teaspoon on a piece of toilet paper. It needs zero confinement and is frightening as far as i'm concerned.

I never seen something so hot,not even magnalium,Im moving on to something else at this point because its not suitable for what i wanna do but for something extremely small i think it deserves mention somewhere, i got it from https://mx5-kevin.blogspot.com/

 

psst...if you read carefully, his "Magnesium 50:50" is probably actually magnalium--MgAl. He first talks about sanding metal from 75% Mg/25% Al boiler anode rods. With sandpaper (yipes; how do you prevent contamination with abrasives---friction...?) and then fine grinding between two sheets of metal... Then talks about 40 micron Mg from vendors... And then he talks about making his own 50:50 "magnesium" (that as described is the alloy with 50% Al...). That's where the "50:50" comes in. I chalk a lot of potential misinterpretation to the translation from Hungarian, but the dude's sections are also all over the map. And our friend has no way to tell if his MgAl is actually anywhere around 40 microns...no indication he has either a microscope or suitable screens, and 40 micron is around a 400 mesh screen, which are starting to get pricey (and are easily chewed up by metals). I'm thinking 40 micron is his optimistic guess. Unless he also has a commercial source for milled MgAl, but nothing suggests this.

 

But yup, barium nitrate and perc make a fine combo for white light and booms. That Ba/perc/Mg combo is in several bright photoflash comps and some brilliant white stars, too. This isn't new knowledge. Careful with that comp--if you're using straight Mg and sulfur in nicely oxidized flash you mght want to smack a few mg against a steel plate with a hammer and do a friction test to see how "delicate" that mix is. Definitely more so than 70:30 that you can beat on a bit before it bites you.

Edited July 10, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[bugmenot1]

psst...if you read carefully, his "Magnesium 50:50" is probably actually magnalium--MgAl. He first talks about sanding metal from 75% Mg/25% Al boiler anode rods. With sandpaper (yipes; how do you prevent contamination with abrasives---friction...?) and then fine grinding between two sheets of metal... Then talks about 40 micron Mg from vendors... And then he talks about making his own 50:50 "magnesium" (that as described is the alloy with 50% Al...). That's where the "50:50" comes in. I chalk a lot of potential misinterpretation to the translation from Hungarian, but the dude's sections are also all over the map. And our friend has no way to tell if his MgAl is actually anywhere around 40 microns...no indication he has either a microscope or suitable screens, and 40 micron is around a 400 mesh screen, which are starting to get pricey (and are easily chewed up by metals). I'm thinking 40 micron is his optimistic guess. Unless he also has a commercial source for milled MgAl, but nothing suggests this.

 

But yup, barium nitrate and perc make a fine combo for white light and booms. That Ba/perc/Mg combo is in several bright photoflash comps and some brilliant white stars, too. This isn't new knowledge. Careful with that comp--if you're using straight Mg and sulfur in nicely oxidized flash you mght want to smack a few mg against a steel plate with a hammer and do a friction test to see how "delicate" that mix is. Definitely more so than 70:30 that you can beat on a bit before it bites you.

 

See the (Stun Granade) composition

 

3g Barium Nitrate Ba(NO3)2

3g Potassium Perchlorate KClO4

3g Aluminum for small salutes pure dark 3-7 micron, larger salutes mixed (Blue 30 μm+ Dark 3-7 μm 50:50)

1g Sulfur

 

The aluminum must protect with 2% H3BO3, what dissolved in small amount of water and completely dried days at room temperature before use. The recommended composition are using pure aluminum in the description. With aluminum the composition much more brighter and safer. 325-400 mesh magnalium are it applies if someone buys it. The magnalium are protected with 5% boiled linseed oil what dissolved small amount of white spirit and completely dried at about 3 week on room temperature. Boiler anodes are melted whit aluminum to get a 50:50 alloy. Using pure magnesium or boiler anode are not recommended about the description. He talks less brighter and much more sensitive the composition with Mg than 50:50 Mg/Al. Google translate translating 50:50 magnalium Mg/Al to pure magnesium Mg and magnesium to magnesium too! There are different descriptions what happened when someone using pure aluminum, mixed Al, 50/50 Mg/Al, 75% Mg/25% Al from boiler anode, homemade and not homemade metal powders, and another nitrates like Sr(NO3)2, or pure KClO4. As I read pure KClO4 with fine Mg are not effective in large salutes, and the description does not recommend the use of pure magnesium.

 

75% Mg/25% Al boiler anode rods works like this.

 

https://www.bitchute.com/channel/X6adxEKbK8Ky/

 

https://www.bitchute.com/video/aElYEUtifJZB/

 

https://www.bitchute.com/video/S6621pTkePXd/

 

https://www.bitchute.com/video/HNRzJUuZqVEb/

 

https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/223-the-best-flash-powder/?p=191134

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWFr3e-l5fc

[Tim1877]

I was wondering if you were adding the trisulfide to a copper oxide thermite type composition? I have been trying to make Rimfire sensitive targets for a while now using copper oxide thermite and sensitizing it with Sulphur but it's really only Dependable with 22 magnum. Another trick I have been attempting is putting a piece of sandpaper inside the target to increase the friction. But I still can't get dependable ignition with normal velocity Long Rifle. Would you care to share any tips?

Thunder#3 will explode every time with standard .22 rimfire cartridges just have something solid behind your target

[pyrojig]

Couple ideas, the finest of the particulate is important in reactive targets. (Thermite mixs)

Also potentially granulating with NC lacquer can create a intimate mixture that is incredibly reactive, and sensitive to the rifle rounds. Don't quote me, but I've heard this from other sources and have not tried the granulated version yet

Edited November 12, 2021 by pyrojig

[WSM]

Couple ideas, the finest of the particulate is important in reactive targets. (Thermite mixs)

Also potentially granulating with NC lacquer can create a intimate mixture that is incredibly reactive, and sensitive to the rifle rounds. Don't quote me, but I've heard this from other sources and have not tried the granulated version yet

 

 

Hi pyrojig,

 

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but did you mean fineness (or very finely ground components)? That's how I took your meaning but found the word you used a little confusing.

 

NC on its own is explosive and can "boost" the reaction to a degree. Some smokeless powders are nearly straight NC (plus modifiers and stabilizers). In other smokeless powders, NC and NG are often mixed to offer a more complete burn; one being oxygen negative and the other being oxygen positive.

 

Just a couple thoughts...

 

WSM

[pyrojig]

Yes ty for the correction.. my phone likes to auto correct. Fine particulate ( fine mesh is important.

I believe the SM forums had some more indepth info on the NC bound cu thermite . It is claimed to be very potent ( like flash)

Edited November 15, 2021 by pyrojig