blue High powered rockets

[damnCATO]

I once saw a guys website who built model rockets .. he stated that he used a composite propellants based on ammonium perchlorate . the picture of the rocket taking off had a brilliant long blue flame projecting out of it. i want to make this!

im getting kind of bored with sugar and BP propellants... im new to AP

and cant seem to find enough info on the web. can some of you veterans help me out with some formulas .. in laymans terms? like the binders .. what the hell is httb7635234??? i know thats not a real one but you know what i mean.

Also a nice list of all known and tested composite rocket fuels would be cool.

ive heard of potassium perchlorate based fuels .. anyone else?

are there any Ap fuels that i can press as a powder into my 1lb BP tooling or use on my strobe/whistle rocket tooling? casting is a pain in the arse.

[optimus]

Not sure if this is quite what you're looking for, but you may want to try this:

 

Blue strobe rocket propellant

Source: Greg Gallacci <psygreg@u.washington.edu

Comments: The GE silicone II is noted for having an ammonia-like odor, where the GE silicones smell more like vinegar. The dimensions of the rocket made with this propellant were 1 1/8 inch ID, with a 1/2 inch core.

Preparation: Mix the copper oxide, PVC and silicone first, in a plastic bag. Then mix in the ammonium perchlorate. The stuff is said to be somewhat crumbly, and presses well.

 

Ammonium perchlorate..............................63

Silicone II.......................................22

Copper(II)oxide...................................10

PVC...............................................5

 

There's also the added bonus of the fact that it strobes, and doesn't require obscure binders. I've also seen videos/webpages about High-powered rockets using an Ammonium Perchlorate based propellant with Copper Oxide included as a catalyst/colourant, but don't have any details/links at hand.

[psymon]

Would love to make this formula however I am having problems finding PVC powder in the UK, can anyone help?

[BigBang]

Ahhh, so you want to try the infamous blue thunder, aqua, blue baboon, or whatever you want to call it. The first thing you must do is live in the US. If you don't, the binder, htpb or R-45M(they are the same) will be quite hard to aquire. You will also need a curing agent. Im could tell you but well, nah.

 

Now, this propellant must be cast so, suck it up. It will also produce a very fast burn and high pressure, heat, ect. You cant just used rammed kitty litter for a nozzle. You must line your casing to prevent a burnthrough, and O-rings at the closures are usually needed.

 

Now, You'll have to fiddle around with the actual formula, but the basics are as follows. It will contain up to 5 percent CuO as a burn rate catalyst, and colors the flame. A small amount of Mg dust will be added, usually between 2 and 5 percent. The last part is the R-45M, which will be used in between 14 and 20 percent. The rest is AP.

 

I'll try to find an exact propellant formula but it will take a bit. I have to sort through a few thousand pages

[FrankRizzo]

You will also need a curing agent. Im could tell you but well, nah.

What?!? What kind of cryptic shit is that? "I know, but I won't tell you" Quit masturbating on his post and provide some relevent information.

 

HTPB stands for "Hydroxy-terminated polybutadiene" and is a stable synthetic rubber used for fuel in composite rocket engines. You need a chemical called ISOPHORONE DIISOCYANATE to cure (cross-link = make it solid) the HTPB, ETHYLHEXYL ACRYLATE which is a plasticizer that will keep the fuel grain from becoming brittle, and HX-878 which is a bonding agent. Silicon oil is also handy as it will help cut down on the production of bubbles when you cure the grain.

 

Pre-formed graphite nozzles are a must, and calcium grease is useful for lubing the o-rings when loading.

 

 

Here's a good blue motor formula:

 

AP (ammonium perchlorate) 85

Mg(1000mesh flake) 2

HTPB 10

copper oxide 3

 

 

This is NOT beginner stuff though....try the GE Silicone II rockets first.

[TheSidewinder]

And if I may add to the helpful information....

 

Tepanol is another term for HX-878.

 

You can also use PBAN (Polybutadiene Acrylic Acid Acrilonitrile, a Carboxyl-terminated polybutadiene), in place of the HTPB. The bonding agent and plasticizers are the same (HX-878 and EHA), but the curing agents are different: DER-331 Epoxy and Versamid-140.

 

BE CAREFUL not to add too much plasticizer, as I discovered to my chagrin. The formulas I have calls for 7% by weight, but that is way too much. 2% seems to be right for the one I have. If you use too much, it will leech out of the composition before it cures. Or form bubbles of itself inside the grain, which makes the dry time insanely long. I want to use paper tubes, so the comp has to be almost dry before I press it and flexibility isn't an issue in 8oz rockets.

 

Red Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) is used as a catalyst if needed.

 

NOTE: Here's a formula I've been playing with for a composite rocket motor I'd like to use for pyro lifting. The amounts are for one kilo of propellant. IT DOESN'T BURN BLUE AS IS, but I suspect you could add 5-10% of Copper Oxide (CuO) and get a decent blue flame.

 

If you want to add metals to this formula?

 

BE CAREFUL as this mix is acidic!!!! Mg and Al *MUST* be coated with Linseed Oil if you use it (and I suspect it should be so in your formula, Frank, but Im not sure) and Potassium Dichromate coating is NOT sufficient!! The author of the formula specifically says that you do *NOT* need metals in this formula: it burns just fine the way it is!

 

 

Ammonium Perchlorate 750 grams

PBAN 135 grams

2-Ethylhexyl Acrylate 20 grams (Original formula called for 70 grams)

DER-331 27.5 grams

Fe2O3 10 grams

HX-878 7.5 grams

 

Yes, the total is 50 grams short of a kilo. As I said, I reduced the plasticizer from 70 to 20 grams. Add 50 grams of Copper Oxide if you are anal-retentive and want blue.

 

The key is mixing. Mix in an industrial mixer for several HOURS (kitchen mixers will burn out FAST - only the large KitchenAid mixers will stand up). This formula REQUIRES a curing temp of about 130-140 degrees F, so even though the curative and epoxy are mixed you will still have an incredibly long pot life.

 

I'm still dialing this one in so I don't have more, info like pressing forces, but you're welcome to experiment with it too.

 

I also have a formula for composite smoke, if you want to press a smoke header on top of the propellant for tracking:

 

Ammonium Perchlorate 31%

Zinc Oxide 18%

 

Dechlorane -OR-

Hexachloroethane 13%

 

Ammonium Chloride 11%

PBAN 10%

2-Ethylhexyl Acrylate 2-3% (original called for 5%. Again, too much)

Sodium Bicarbonate 4%

DER-331 or Shell 828 Epozy 3%

Sulfur 2%

Versamid 140 2%

Red Iron Oxide 1%

 

Mix all except the DER-331 for several HOURS, add DER-331 and mix for ONE MORE FULL hour. Cure 8-9 hours at 130-140F or until you can "crumble" it for pressing or forming, or cure several more hours if in its final form. Press *lightly* if used above a propellant grain.

 

I've made this several times and ground-fired it. Impressive amount of smoke for a small amount of comp.....

 

 

Hope that's what you were looking for, damnCATO et al.

 

M

[BigBang]

You will also need a curing agent. Im could tell you but well, nah.

What?!? What kind of cryptic shit is that? "I know, but I won't tell you" Quit masturbating on his post and provide some relevent information.

 

I was going to say that exact type but quite frankly, I don't give a rats ass. If you buy the bider from a GOOD source, it comes with the amount needed.

 

I recommend not going the PBAN route for a few resons. One is the fact that when usuing PBAN, you must mix for a LONG time and the mix is very thick. When using HTPB, mixing takes about 15 minutes. PBAN also smells like ass and when on you, it is a bitch to get off. PBAN, unlike HTPB, needs to be kept an elivated temperture for almost a week before it is completely cured. HTPB takes no more than a day. And to top it all off, PBAN stinks! I would rather sniff manure all day than it.

 

Don't add any iron oxide to your mix or you WILL have a cato. CuO is a very strong catalyst for composite propellants, along with a beautiful coloring agent.

 

About the propellant burning without metals, of course it will. The binder is actually the fuel! And it coats the metal powders, when used, so they don't need to be previously coated.

 

The nozzle should be either graphite if you want to reuse it or glassed phenolic if you are making single use motors.

 

No more than 5% plasticizer should be added, it make the grain MORE brittle, not less.

 

Just so you know, you will most liely have to vacuum treat it. This just keeps bubbles from from forming, which will cause a cato.

[TheSidewinder]

QUOTE: "About the propellant burning without metals, of course it will. The binder is actually the fuel! And it coats the metal powders, when used, so they don't need to be previously coated.

"

 

This is incorrect.

 

1) I never said it wouldn't burn without metal, I said it didn't need it. And since the Iron Oxide is specifically called for, you aren't going to get a CATO from it. If it CATO's, you did something else wrong. The fuel as I made it works beautifully (so far, unconfined. Im experimenting, as I said).

 

2) PBAN is acidic enough that you must coat the Mg or Al. The source is quite specific, and frankly I trust my sources a lot better than I trust anyone here.

 

As far as HTPB needing any metals to be coated with linseed oil? Dunno, I assumed. Guess I shouldn't have. If HTPB is basic enough, you're right, metals shouldn't need coating. Why take the chance, though?

 

These are my personal experiences and information from sources that I trust. If you choose to alter the formula, perhaps you have the know-how to do it safely. But someone else reading this may not. And if you prefer HTPB over PBAN, that's fine. But don't claim that the formula I offered will CATO because it calls for Iron Oxide, or that adding uncoated reactive metals is just fine and dandy.

 

M

[BigBang]

Sorry, you misunderstand me, it won't cato if JUST using iron oxide. I was reffering to the addition of CuO. In all of my tests, my JPL contacts tests, and Gary from aerotech's attemps. It just makes for too much catalyst, causing a FEROCIOUS burn. It will cato in this case!

 

And the coating was also reffering to HTPB not PBAN. Yes PBAN is acidic and yes it will cause H to evolve. This can, besides being a fire hazard, cause an inadiquate grain. So either it explodes on the pad or it lights in your storage.

[FrankRizzo]

CuO and Fe2O3 can be used interchangeably, but not in addition to each other. They both work as catalysts and should only be used at 1-3%.

[TheSidewinder]

Oooookay. Now I see what you meant. Didn't know CuO was such a terrific catalyst. I'll make note of that and try modifying the formula sometime this Summer.

 

So the HTPB formulation is basic enough to allow for uncoated metals?

 

If so, maybe I'll use one of the other formulas I have that calls for it. Hmm.. first I'll have to get more R-45.

 

Thanks.

 

EDIT: Just read Franks reply. 3% max, eh? Mine is using just 1% Fe2O3, but if I substitute CuO for all the Fe2O3, 3% would be about right?

[damnCATO]

You guys rock! Blue thunder .. i like that name.. i cant wait to try it .. Ive made the blue strobe rockets with the Ge silcone II .. the strobe effect was random?? and it flew as if it were in slow motion and eventually turned down wind and flew horizontally for a quarter mile .i think i should have milled my AP better .. i mill it in a blender on highspeed.. does a great job with sugar and potassium nitrate .. little scary though with the AP . Also i couldnt find any dimensions on the motor at all.. so i just put it together like a 1lb black powder rocket with a core.. if im reading right .. im supposed to use my whistle rocket tooling and start with whistle mix? its not supposed to have a core? ... i dont know.. maybe thats why it headed straight for the gas station down the street ..

I live in the US .. so where do i go buy this htpb or r-45 ? does it sell under a retail name? ive heard of marine epoxy being used with ammonium nitrate ? you guys have and formulas to share?

can you use copper oxide or carbonate to make a potassium nitrate or ammonium nitrate based blue flamed rocket ? AP is so damn expensive!

I just received an order i placed for 200 lbs of potassium nitrate 100 lbs of sodium nitrate and 100 lbs of ammonium nitrate and 100 lbs of sulfur

all for only $400 bucks! Now tomorrow night im going to dress up like a ninja and go cut down all my neighbors willow trees and make charcoal. PSYMON i have a few pounds of PVC .. if you must have some ill mail it to the UK ... you might have it by the summer...

and if any of you need soem stuff and you live in the Atlanta ga area

feel free to stop by and get some .. but bring rockets to launch!!!

Id like to eventually built a big rocket to launch myself to 13,000 ft and skydive out of it. anyone want to help me with the math?

[TheSidewinder]

damnCATO, be sure and press that mix, don't ram it. And the problem you describe with the rocket heading for the gas station sounds like you didn't press it hard enough, maybe. I don't know whether that formula is for a cored or non-cored motor, though.

 

HTPB, PBAN and some Polybutadiene-related composite binders can be had from Firefox. It's where I get mine.

 

I don't think those other oxidizers will work nearly as well as you would need for a good rocket fuel, but I'm not certain. I'm sure someone else can answer that.

 

As to your last question? I think you would need rather a lot of Perc, for starters.

 

M

[BigBang]

We all can dream the dream I spose.

 

KNO3 won't produce enough thrust, nor will it burn very well, same for sodium nitrate. CuCO3 will just produce a weeker propellant with most likely almost no blue visible. AN will produce an ok propellant, but alot of Mg MUST be used for it to burn right. Due to this Mg, it won't be ablue to be colored.

 

http://www.aeroconsystems.com/tips/descent_rate.htm

 

R-45M can also be had there along with curing agents, silocon oil, cure catalysts, ect.... I would HIGHLY recommend them. Bob knows a lot

[dzoomer]

By all means! Go directly to: www.United Nuclear.com -OR- www.Cannon fuse.com and have a ball! The info is abundant and the links will keep you in info as well as sources for chems in sml. or large amounts. "May the Force Be With You!" Be Safe!

[[w00t]]

Anyone have a video of this going off, sounds pretty cool when the damnCATO described it?

[BigBang]

http://www.dgmicro.com/opl/pmotor.htm

 

There is an example. The "cow" was 20 ft tall, so that gives you something to compare the flame length to.

 

Enjoy.

[healthypt]

Sidewinder and Pyromaniac made great posts;have been casting pro-

pellant slugs for several years.AP is twice as powerful as BP,and it can be

poured,IF you use 14% or more HTPB AND 0.75% liquid lecithin(natural

food surfactant). These websites should help:

www.dgmicro.com/opl(Ozark Propulsion Labs)

www..rocketmotorparts.com(experimental side of Aerotech)

 

AP composite propellants are VERY! pressure sensitive, so look closely

at nozzle throat size/mass propellant/burn rate on the OPL site.

Visited with Ken Kosanke at the Journal of Pyrotechnics lab;he notes

that AP brings out the best colors.

[ActionTekJackson]

Not sure if this is quite what you're looking for, but you may want to try this:

 

Blue strobe rocket propellant

Source: Greg Gallacci <psygreg@u.washington.edu

Comments: The GE silicone II is noted for having an ammonia-like odor, where the GE silicones smell more like vinegar. The dimensions of the rocket made with this propellant were 1 1/8 inch ID, with a 1/2 inch core.

Preparation: Mix the copper oxide, PVC and silicone first, in a plastic bag. Then mix in the ammonium perchlorate. The stuff is said to be somewhat crumbly, and presses well.

 

Ammonium perchlorate..............................63

Silicone II.......................................22

Copper(II)oxide...................................10

PVC...............................................5

 

There's also the added bonus of the fact that it strobes, and doesn't require obscure binders.  I've also seen videos/webpages about High-powered rockets using an Ammonium Perchlorate based propellant with Copper Oxide included as a catalyst/colourant, but don't have any details/links at hand.

ASF@#%@!!!!!! I've been working with these rockets and can't get the damn things to give any thrust at all. Did a static test on a scale that reads pretty quick the highest it got was 22 grams of downward force created by the rocket... The main issue I can tell is the nozzle continuously plugs up with ash *or whatever the hell it is* A picture of it from a nozzless test is below, looks like dog crap, has a metalic/ceramic sound to it. The gas output of these seems pretty good and the stars that I make out of it act like mini spinners on the ground.... so why can't I get it to fly? These are done in 3/4" ID x 4" length rockets as endburners. Haven't tried one cored yet, has anyone gotten these to fly, or know of any other silicone based propellants?

[healthypt]

Crud comes from unburned fuel.1)Try @ inch slugs with a center

hole three times the diameter of the nozzle throat,2)use 2%-6%

Mg to increase burn rate(1-2 for blue),3)try Elmers liquid rubber

or 30 min epoxy at 14%-16%,4)I use copper oxychloride 18% to

get the same color as AMWs Blue Baboon.CuO is a moderate burn

rate enhancer for AP,up to 5%,then faster.Most chlorine donors like

PVC will crud up your nozzle quickly,and make AP based propellants harder to ignite.

[Rellizate]

Would love to make this formula however I am having problems finding PVC powder in the UK, can anyone help?

http://www.hobbychem.moonfruit.com/

Chemicals Page 2.

[Fluorescein]

80% ammonium perchlorate

20% copper benzoate

+5% nc laquer

should be the perfect blue propellant, but every rocket and even go-getters explode instantly.

Is there any possibility to use this brilliant star formula as a propellant and NOT as a explosive?

Perhaps hexamine or SiO2 to reduce the burning rate?

[Miech]

It's the NC that's causing problems. Under pressure it burns way faster than the rest of the composition, so basically you're getting a core of loose powder instead of a solid grain. I've experienced the same problems with NC bound BP rockets. I thought it was Sleeters book on rocketry (a must have IMO) that discussed this problem as well, but I don't know the page by head.

 

Perhaps replacing it with something like hexachlorobenzene or red gum will do the trick. Adding SiO₂ doesn't make much sense I think, the flame will just move around it unless you are using extremely much of it. It increases sensitivity too.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Miech

[Mumbles]

It's a rocket, it doesn't need to be bound at all. Just press it dry, or add some vaseline or something to that effect. Copper Benzoate is a tad waxy to begin with.

[Seymour]

It is interesting that the Ammonium perchlorate blue rockets typically have both a metal fuel, and a very low (1% is normal) copper content. While the blue colour is definitely intentional, the copper salt (oxide or chromate are common) are used as catalysts to get it burning fast!. According to a rocketry friend of mine, adding much more than 1% copper to the fuel makes these rockets pop quite reliably.

 

The fact that the flame is still blue shows that the high temperatures do not destroy all the CuCl, which in this case comes through exceptionally well due the the transparency of the very clean flame.

 

It could be, however, that the expansion of the gasses as the gasses pass through the expansion cone on the nossles is sufficient to cool the flame to a fairly low temperature, much below what might be expected from a composition with five, six or seven per cent Aluminium, Magnesium or Magnalium in it.