Mg ribbon ignition

[Richtee]

So, I think a “falling leaves” with strips of Mg metal ribbon would be cool. Almost like a flare shell. But I can’t get that stuff to light. Just tried FeAl thermite bound with NC. No go.

 

Anything on this? I have some chlorate on the way. Was gonna try a sparkler type prime?

[SharkWhisperer]

Would be cool if you could get it to work. Hard to ignite but larger problem might be keeping it burning--it's pretty easy to extinguish burning Mg ribbon, and I'd be concerned that airflow alone might be sufficient. Never dropped a lit piece from any altitude but simple to test. Hmm...get a suitably hot prime that can tolerate a burst charge intact, fire up a strip of Mg, and that ribbon continues burning on the drop. Simple in theory...if it works and stays lit. I'd think making stars from a flare mix might be easier, though you'd then have to sort out how to get the slow fall effect you're looking for.

 

You can light Mg ribbon with a Bic lighter if you have the patience. Else a butane torch will fire it right up. You couldn't get FeAl to fire it up? Sheesh, Often Mg ribbon is used to ignite thermite, so that's rather odd. Perhaps the NC slowed the burn rate or reduced temp? NC is slightly oxygen deficient (but should be pretty well-balanced if you used double-base smokeless with NG...)..

 

Anyways, torch, ignite, drop, observe, tsk tsk. Then you'll know whether to abort or get that prime sorted out. Good luck.

[Richtee]

Burns alla way down a 15 foot drop. The chlorate will arrive today. Yeah, the thermite thing really bugs me. I thought for SURE. But it DOES tend to “bubble” off the surface and not “stick”. Hmm.

 

Well, we’ll see.

[SharkWhisperer]

Burns alla way down a 15 foot drop. The chlorate will arrive today. Yeah, the thermite thing really bugs me. I thought for SURE. But it DOES tend to “bubble” off the surface and not “stick”. Hmm.

 

Well, we’ll see.

Well that's encouraging that it doesn't extinguish simply by dropping it freefall. Use a torch to finally get it lit up?

 

So you'll need a hot prime to get adequate ignition temps, but slow enough to ensure ignition continues through the burst phase velocities, which won't be as forgiving obviously as a casual ignite and drop off the stairs protocol. Stargun testing seems in order. It'd be nice to see several burning at once on the downdrift. Guessing with it's comparative weight and drag coefficient ribbon strips might drop a little faster than falling leaf fuse, but that's simply a guess without good reasoning. Why the KCLO₃ selection to start? Sure it requires lower ignition temps than perc, comps, but more than BP comps. Have you considered a slowish BP comp containing perhaps 10% Mg or Mg/Al and a little silicon for added slagular heat transfer as a ribbon end primer? Boron's sometimes difficult to acquire, but burns super hot. Would need to compare tables of BP + boron vs BP with Mg/Al, if available; might require some digging. Unreliable Firefox advertises a boron/KNO₃ ignition mix, but it's pelletized/granular; dont' think they sell pure boron powder, but you'd probably be able to locate it if you dig deep enough. Might be pricey. I'd try the BP/Silicon/MgAl idea first, perhaps bound with NC. Knowing how difficult Mg ribbon can be to ignite under static conditions, you're going to want to be certain that your prime will remain adhered to your ribbon after prime ignition during burst kinetics.

 

Hope it works...I have several rolls of Mg ribbon accumulated with no real purpose (easier ways to ignite typical Fe/Al thermite; why I bought it). Just sitting around getting old....you can only light so many lengths of Mg ribbon for amusement before said amusement becomes (bright) boredom!

 

Good luck. Keep us updated, please.

[Richtee]

Damn but that shit IS bright! I’m gonna mix some FeAl/KNO3 tomorrow. A “sparkler” mix.

 

My next step will be a small “rocket” within the shell. Lord save me from that eventuality.

[SharkWhisperer]

Damn but that shit IS bright! I’m gonna mix some FeAl/KNO3 tomorrow. A “sparkler” mix.

 

My next step will be a small “rocket” within the shell. Lord save me from that eventuality.

I'm enthused but not optimistic that you think you can use a KNO₃/thermite mix to light your Mg ribbon pieces. Easy enough to try, but just doesn't seem like an approach I'd expect to work. Classical Fe₂O₃ + 2Al is already oxygen-balanced--do you expect the KNO₃ addition will significantly heat it up (or make it easier to ignite as a prime!)? Maybe, but that's not the approach I'd try first. If I was planning to use a Goldschmidt rxn to generate heat for a prime, I'd opt for the easier igniting (CuO mix), though that too, seems unlikely to get the job done reliably. Slow burning, hot burning, and easy to ignite. That's the prime you need and that's not shared traits of all thermites, for sure. Remember from way back how difficult basic sparklers were to ignite?

 

Again, I'd think you might have better luck getting an easier ignition with BP and/or NC, higher burn temps with a burning metal, and slower/prolonged heat contact using a BP base with Si added. Using NC or silicone to grab your ribbon.

 

But we're both guessing until it's tried, so good luck!

[Richtee]

Damn this shit should be used for fire walls. No..wait..I suppose it would EVENTUALLY light and that would be a problem

 

I’m gonna try “jacketing" basically a comet with the short strips rolled in a thin walled paper tube and gonna try an NC/fe/al perhaps 2 gram comet “filling”.

 

I’m getting discouraged. And I have not even figgered on a burst so as NOT to blow out the metal. Perhaps literally make a “mini mortar” that just kinda pops the top on the shell and ejects the MG sleeved comet while “hopefully” lighting the MG.

[SharkWhisperer]

Damn this shit should be used for fire walls. No..wait..I suppose it would EVENTUALLY light and that would be a problem

 

I’m gonna try “jacketing" basically a comet with the short strips rolled in a thin walled paper tube and gonna try an NC/fe/al perhaps 2 gram comet “filling”.

 

I’m getting discouraged. And I have not even figgered on a burst so as NOT to blow out the metal. Perhaps literally make a “mini mortar” that just kinda pops the top on the shell and ejects the MG sleeved comet while “hopefully” lighting the MG.

Unclear how your thermite will take fire to light your Mg in that context. The NC binder probably won't add substantial heat and might actually hinder thermite (then Mg; again, reverse order from usual...) ignition. I don't usually tout this guy as an expansive resource, largely because of neglected safety measures, but one of Elemental Maker's YouTube videos on silicone fuse for thermite might be more what you're looking for--gives a good slow, hot burn, and instantly ignites thermite; can't see it not also igniting Mg ribbon, and it burns pretty slowly but vigorously. A consideration is that that mix uses permanganate as the oxidizer, but I haven't noticed any handling or storage issues. Nonetheless, you might want to try subbing perc for the oxidizer--the silicone fuel surprised me with its heat output (amped up with some extra MgAl...). Will start up a campfire or the firepit instantly.

 

If you cut the end of your mg ribbons strips lengthwise maybe 1/8" in and folded the "arms" opposite at 90 degrees, that might be sufficient for adhering a large drop of silicone fuel. It ignites pretty easily, but could easily be primed by a quick dip in mineral spirits/paint thinner to dissolve the outer layer (maybe; will polymerized silicone go back into solution?) and then a BP prime dip. I'd prime it somehow, though. Here, too, the weak link I see is keeping the silicone first-fire attached to the Mg ribbon strips during burst. But, combined with your idea to paper wrap the whole deal, that could work. Like a paper/cardboard cylindrical insert filled with silicone fuel (probably a piece of BM or primed fuse running down the center), and strips of Mg ribbon poking through the insert/tube walls (thin) and anchored into the silicone like a little pyro porcupine. If it fired up the Mg but overall burn speed was way low, however, it might be a great way to start some ground fires, ack.

[pycharm]

I saw a video on YouTube about ElementalMaker using K perm, 1 part Sulfur, and Silicon to ignige thermite as an alternative to MG ribbon. I know the perm isn't the safest but perhaps you could find a way to incorporate it safely. If it'll light therm I'm sure it'll light ribbon

[SharkWhisperer]

I saw a video on YouTube about ElementalMaker using K perm, 1 part Sulfur, and Silicon to ignige thermite as an alternative to MG ribbon. I know the perm isn't the safest but perhaps you could find a way to incorporate it safely. If it'll light therm I'm sure it'll light ribbon

Yeah, I mentioned that in the prior post. With the same qualifications. No reason perc couldn't be subbed for permanganate--the latter is not an absolute necessity, but probably just something dude heard mentioned that would work, and does work. There's nothing special about pot permanganate versus perc except that it's potentially more hazardous to use/store comps long term. I've kept that stuff around a good while without issue. But the instructions are primal and kitchen-based, not laboratory/experimentally based. KMnO₄ vs KClO₄--why would you select one versus the other as the oxidant? I can think of several reasons to lean for perc. I can think of several reasons to lean away from permanganate (which I've also used extensively over decades, for various purposes).

 

I'm entertained by Elemental Maker's vids. But they are sorely lacking on any chemistry ("white potassium based oxidizer" so he doesn't get booted off of Youtube--again) discussion or potential interactions. Like how he "eyeballs" the mix components instead of using a scale? No mention of the very real safety hazards of permanganate with other organics, as simple as spontaneously igniting common table sugar? Entertaining, yes. Educational, no. To be repeated just as you saw it? Well, 1) you couldn't. Chems aren't really weighed. 2) He either isn't aware, amusing as he may be, or doesn't consider it his responsibility to issue appropriate cautions (besides the typical "don't do this at home" disclaimer). Funny dude. Smart. Love to share a beer with him. But wouldn't want him teaching my best friend how to do pyro/rocketry/electronics strictly from his vids. Ever.

 

Lighting Mg ribbon is not difficult. I've done it with a Bic lighter half as many times as I had a blister from trying it. It works, with a little patience and pain tolerance. Then you get past 12 y/o and can get a torch, and the stuff lights real easily. And it will ignite thermite, which takes some doing.

 

Now the question is how can you light bunch of Mg ribbon reliably, all at once, and not have it blow out during a burst charge. To suggest thermite is counterproductive from the start. To suggest the silicone/oxidizer/MgAl concoction I mentioned, with allusion to the Elemental Maker (he did not create this formula, nor did he share its source) as a possible means to get the ribbon fired up--yup. Suggested that, too. Will it work? Meh? Maybe. Worth a try. Easy enough. Would I swap the permanganate for the perc? Yup, I'd try that. For four reasons: 1) permanganate makes decent FP, but that's not what we're going for here, though it is a great oxidizer so it's got that going for it; 2) permanganate is messy as fuck--everything it touches turns purple, unless it's skin, in which case it'll oxidize to brown until it sheds off, and will make nice stains on everything around it if it doesn't burn off completely; more of an inconvenience than anything; 3) Permanganate is more toxic and polluting than perc, though mildly toxic itself. Your choice. And 4) Permanganate/metal comps are notoriously unstable, and without question more dangerous to work with than perc mixed with the same items. Diluted in a silicone environment? Great. Is that a safety guarantee, or the possibility of new unknown reactions with a very very reactive oxidizer as that silicone matures/cures (in the presence of metals--aka FP--and a little sulfur to sensitize it further and lower the ignition temps)? No, you're testing the unknown. It might work great. It might store great. Nobody knows. But most could easily guess that a similar formulation based on perc would be much more predictable, in several facets of chemical interactions, at least.

 

What escapes me is, besides the "can I do it" challenge, I'd think a 1/3" Mg-based hot metallic star would burn immensely brighter than a bunch of Mg ribbon strips afire and "floating"/falling like metal strips would be expected to, towards the ground from any shell/header. Hell, I have several hundred feet of Mg ribbon that I'd love to find a use for besides temporarily blinding drunk compadres by the firepit. So I'd love to see RT come up with a fun and practical use for it!!!

 

I'm all in. Just weighing the likelihoods and realities of desired effect vs ability to use Mg ribbon to accomplish that effect.

 

Let's see what happens!

[Mumbles]

Like most things you may see on Youtube, very little of it is original or presented by experts. The silicone/permanganate fuse has been around for a long time. Look into Microtek silicone fuse for some of the original information or hopefully better details. That's not to say it's inherently safe, or even a good idea, but I always feel it's best to go back to some of the original sources instead of relying on 5th hand accounts. Details are easily lost playing internet telephone.

[Richtee]

Well, I have ordered some silicon. The “wrapped shell comet” with NC bound Perc/AL DID work. Kinda.I tried it on the ground and the stips did light but went out... odd- perhaps I’ll need a thicker comet... almost seemed the stupid 2 wraps of paper around the ribbon snuffed it?

 

But it’s coming to the point of pissing me off. So, I’m either gonna solve this, or go on a couple day drunk and forget about it

 

I had not seen the silicone thingie. Odd... and I’d rather not work with K perm.

 

Jeez..this seemed like a no-brainer at the outset. I guess that’s when ya know yer in trouble - hahahaha

Edited March 30, 2021 by Richtee

[Richtee]

Damn tho..that silicone fuse. Wow..I’d not have expected that.

[SharkWhisperer]

Damn tho..that silicone fuse. Wow..I’d not have expected that.

I've made variations of it for amusement purposes. And it (considering it contains permanganate) stores very well and has started (and restarted) several a wet camp fire without issue. It burns vigorously. I haven't had any odd reactions or storage concerns with various different formulations--most included extra metal to set things off properly, but not necessary. The silicone I used was the cheap household stuff that had a distinct acetic acid odor to it--would have to dig through the garage to locate it. But it's entertaining stuff. Extra titanium and cold-cast (it's silicone, ya know) into kitchen cookie tins of various characters/shapes, or cut to shape/size (retains flexibility). I tried to noodle a round spaghetti-like fuse strand through a pastry maker, but it just clogged up and made a mess. Can always add mineral spirits to thin it to desired viscosity, but that wasn't really my goal at the time. Anyways, good luck, whether you continue on this path or just call it a day and go sip a whisky instead. Side note: KMnO₄ by itself does not worry me--i have a decent quantity--but please respect its reactivity qualities. it's why permanganate and sugars (table sugar) or more commonly glycerol (common glycerine skin products) spontaneously combust--used for survival fire-starting kits etc, and an interesting demonstration (but it is temperature dependent).

 

Nothing special about silicone fuse--just another fuel. Permanganate? Just another oxidizer--perc's retarded kid brother (advance apologies to those easily offended, but I don't do PC). Many ways to ignite Mg...

[SharkWhisperer]

Well, I have ordered some silicon. The “wrapped shell comet” with NC bound Perc/AL DID work. Kinda.I tried it on the ground and the stips did light but went out... odd- perhaps I’ll need a thicker comet... almost seemed the stupid 2 wraps of paper around the ribbon snuffed it?

 

But it’s coming to the point of pissing me off. So, I’m either gonna solve this, or go on a couple day drunk and forget about it

 

I had not seen the silicone thingie. Odd... and I’d rather not work with K perm.

 

Jeez..this seemed like a no-brainer at the outset. I guess that’s when ya know yer in trouble - hahahaha

"Silicon"? As in the metal powder that makes a great prime heater-upper? Cool. Silicon as in a mistaken replacement for household flexible silicone adhesive that comes in a tube? Naah, different beasts. Please don't say you mixed them up. Entirely different animals. Anyways, they're both good for something, so no matter--you'll be fine.

 

The paper wraps snuffing your Mg burn? No surprise. It's just metal. It needs atmospheric oxygen--it's not getting it from another ingredient in a pyro comp--your only oxidizer (once ignited), is air... Might not be sufficient for your wants...

 

Good luck.

[Richtee]

"Silicon"? As in the metal powder that makes a great prime heater-upper? Cool. Silicon as in a mistaken replacement for household flexible silicone adhesive that comes in a tube? Naah, different beasts. Please don't say you mixed them up. Entirely different animals. Anyways, they're both good for something, so no matter--you'll be fine.

 

The paper wraps snuffing your Mg burn? No surprise. It's just metal. It needs atmospheric oxygen--it's not getting it from another ingredient in a pyro comp--your only oxidizer (once ignited), is air... Might not be sufficient for your wants...

 

Good luck.

No..I did not order 36C’s. And yer right. It’s a bit of a sticky wicket this one. I’m a stubborn fuck tho.

 

“Perc’s retarded kid brother...”

[Richtee]

I saw a video on YouTube about ElementalMaker using K perm, 1 part Sulfur, and Silicon to ignige thermite as an alternative to MG ribbon. I know the perm isn't the safest but perhaps you could find a way to incorporate it safely. If it'll light therm I'm sure it'll light ribbon

I looked into that guy. He’s a hoot! Powder coated 9MM rounds. Cool.

[pycharm]

I've made variations of it for amusement purposes. And it (considering it contains permanganate) stores very well and has started (and restarted) several a wet camp fire without issue. It burns vigorously. I haven't had any odd reactions or storage concerns with various different formulations--most included extra metal to set things off properly, but not necessary. The silicone I used was the cheap household stuff that had a distinct acetic acid odor to it--would have to dig through the garage to locate it. But it's entertaining stuff. Extra titanium and cold-cast (it's silicone, ya know) into kitchen cookie tins of various characters/shapes, or cut to shape/size (retains flexibility). I tried to noodle a round spaghetti-like fuse strand through a pastry maker, but it just clogged up and made a mess. Can always add mineral spirits to thin it to desired viscosity, but that wasn't really my goal at the time. Anyways, good luck, whether you continue on this path or just call it a day and go sip a whisky instead. Side note: KMnO₄ by itself does not worry me--i have a decent quantity--but please respect its reactivity qualities. it's why permanganate and sugars (table sugar) or more commonly glycerol (common glycerine skin products) spontaneously combust--used for survival fire-starting kits etc, and an interesting demonstration (but it is temperature dependent).

 

Nothing special about silicone fuse--just another fuel. Permanganate? Just another oxidizer--perc's retarded kid brother (advance apologies to those easily offended, but I don't do PC). Many ways to ignite Mg...

Yeah, keep it far away from anything containing glycerin. A drop of brake fluid will start a fire if it comes into contact with it. It's interesting stuff, but as the guys above me said, make sure you do your research on the stuff.