Is the CIA method still viable?

[Paramax55]

I'm starting my venture to load BP in my 46ACP cartridges. I've loaded a bunch of smokeless, so this isn't new to me, but I would like to have some COMPLETELY renewable and self-sufficient resources in light of current affairs.

 

That being said, I've seen reference to the CIA method, but I don't see anyone talking about actually doing it. I'm imagining that you are getting the Potassium Nitrate to nitrate the charcoal in solution so that you get more complete nitration (did I use the word nitrate)? It seems that is the goal when making gun cotton, anyway - thus the 24 hour soak. But what I see in practical examples is people simply granulating with alcohol. Is granulating as good as CIA? Does it matter in practical application?

[pyrokid]

The keys to good BP:

 

a) Sufficient quality components - charcoal has a huge effect on the speed of the black powder. If your goal is sustainability, you should make your own charcoal using a retort or TLUD burner. You can select the wood type and control the process variables to generate a product that meets your exacting specifications. Similarly, you want KNO3 and sulfur that are free from excess impurities.

 

b ) Sufficient particle size reduction - the components must be fine powders to ensure sufficient mixing and burn speed.

 

c) Sufficient mixing - component particles should be uniformly distributed throughout the mass of composition

 

d) Effective processing - after the above steps, the processing should ensure that the final product is robust, uniform, and effective. If you wanted to emulate commercial powders closely, pressing to a uniform density and then crushing, sieving, and sorting of grains to give a uniform product is a priority. It's often said that commercial manufacturers value consistency over absolute speed/strength of the powder, and I think that's especially true for firearms applications. Many homemade powders are faster than commercial powders, so you need to establish performance benchmarks before you start loading cartridges for shooting.

 

KNO3 does not nitrate the charcoal to my knowledge. My understanding of the CIA method is that it uses the alcohol to crash the KNO3 out of aqueous solution as a way to mix the components. The pyrotechnist perspective would probably recommend a ball mill. I think user "justvisiting" here has demonstrated that you can equal the quality of commercial powders at home without ever milling all 3 components together (safe!).

Edited March 8, 2021 by pyrokid

[Richtee]

Good points made above. I have made BP so fast, I’d not ever try it in a firearm. Or, at a 50% reduction in load. But..it’s too fast. Firearms want a smooth, even pressure increase, not a spike.

 

And then you have barrel/action fouling. BP is not a clean powder, even well made BP. A 1911 or other auto pistol will let you know that very soon.

 

If yer beset by zombies, ya gotta do what ya gotta. But... there’s repercussions.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Richtee

[SharkWhisperer]

I'm starting my venture to load BP in my 46ACP cartridges. I've loaded a bunch of smokeless, so this isn't new to me, but I would like to have some COMPLETELY renewable and self-sufficient resources in light of current affairs.

 

That being said, I've seen reference to the CIA method, but I don't see anyone talking about actually doing it. I'm imagining that you are getting the Potassium Nitrate to nitrate the charcoal in solution so that you get more complete nitration (did I use the word nitrate)? It seems that is the goal when making gun cotton, anyway - thus the 24 hour soak. But what I see in practical examples is people simply granulating with alcohol. Is granulating as good as CIA? Does it matter in practical application?

I've never met anybody in my life except some kids on Youtube who either can't afford a ball mill or have a bunch of isopropyl laying about that use the CIA method.

 

Pretty messy, wasteful, time-consuming, and entirely unnecessary to get good component integration. If it was economical, it'd be used commercially.

 

There is no chemical "nitration" going on in CIA--It's all just intimate physical incorporation of the ingredients. Like you get pretty quickly with a decent mill. That said, Minamoto Kobayashi here described milling his BP with as an alcohol/water slurry before drying, but I believe that was only for an added safety factor so he didn't blow up his residence. He made good BP, but unsure if any better than dry milling... The finer the (high-quality) ingredients and the more intimate the mixing, the faster the BP burn.

Edited March 8, 2021 by SharkWhisperer

[Paramax55]

I have a ball mill and I have made a few batches of charcoal from pine rabbit bedding. One of the challenges with BP is getting ENOUGH in a cartridge to cycle the gun. You only want 4-5 grains of smokeless powder in a 45, but 16.5 grains of Goex will only give you 500 fps at best and you may still get short cycles. And that's about all you will fit in the case with a compressed load. There is a video on youtube where some guys filled a rifle barrel with BP and it didn't hurt thr gun at all.

 

I'm aware of the soot. This is going in a glock and they are stupid-easy to take apart and clean. I'll just throw everything in the ultrasonic if I need to.

 

I have enough store-bought rounds and reloading supplies to last a lifetime of real-life situations, but this will let me go plinking without watching my supplies dwindle.

 

If the CIA method doesn't give you any better powder, then why do it? It also seems that it would be harder to control how much KNO3 stays with the powder and how much gets thrown out. And, when granulating, does it matter whether you use isopropyl or denatured alcohol? Denatured is real easy to get.

[Arthur]

I'm not a shooter, BUT I'd research the corrosive effect of BP flame gasses before deciding to deciding to ruin a good pistol. When navies used BP for propellant the life of a naval gun barrel was limited by the corrosion and erosion of the barrel. You can clean a gun but you cannot replace eroded metal with ease.

 

The CIA method is still just as valid as it ever was as the last possible method if you have no other choices, it's the worst use for good chems known! If you want good BP shooting then look at a really good mill and puck and press method and look for the most reliable and repeatable method of getting the same product each time.

 

I think you may not be happy with a NC sized brass when loaded full with BP.

[Bourbon]

I have read several people using FFF on 45 ACP with fine results. If you need more volume you could always switch to FFFF, a bit snappier. Of coarse GOEX, or the like, is a whole different ball game from DIY.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Bourbon

[justvisiting]

Paramax55, you are still asking about granulating, I see. You won't be doing that if you want consistent BP for use in a gun. Granulated BP is 'fluffy', and has nowhere near the density of pucked, corned powder. Commercial powder is pucked, corned, and graded. The density is about 1.7 g/cc.

 

When pressing BP pucks, only 2-4% water is used, so the powder is minimally altered. The process produces a much more consistent powder than any other method. Not a gun guy either, but I'm pretty sure that's what you want.

[Paramax55]

Since the pucks are compressed, I can see as to how this would make a more consistent and faster powder. My first thoughts were that the granulation would give you more consistently sized pellets, but the word "fluffy" makes sense. Is there a better method for corning the pucks rather than beating them with a hammer?

 

I'm aware of the corrosiveness. Any sulfur based powder will be corrosive - as well as chlorate based primers. Like I mentioned... Glocks are rediculously easy to take apart and clean. But thanks for the warning.

[justvisiting]

Paramax, compressed pucks make a more dense powder, but it burns quite a bit more slowly than granulated powder. Also, pressing to a specific gravity of 1.9 makes a MUCH slower powder than pressing to a specific gravity of say, 1.6. My guess is that granulated powder has a density around half of commercial powder's density.

 

When I corn my powder, I use an old Louisville Slugger with a meat hammer end affixed to the end of the bat. I run it up and down in an ABS sleeve, with the powder in a loose-fitting soft plastic test cap. I give a few whacks, screen it, return the 'overs' to the tube, and repeat, until all my powder is below the maximum mesh size set by the screen. I then screen it to the smaller particle sizes.

 

There is a lot of writing about this stuff on this forum, and a few good articles have been linked to that discuss commercial powder manufacture. Most of the stuff written about black powder in this forum will be in reference to making homemade powder for fireworks use. Our pyro applications for BP are many, so there's practically no such thing as 'no good' BP for us. You need a much tighter set of parameters for your use.

[Paramax55]

So... now I'm back to granulated? Thanks for the confusion! I think I will start with granulated using denatured alcohol and red gum. Does this sound viable? I know most of this will pertain to fireworks, but I figured you fokks pkay with this stuff and would have some worthy answers. Edited March 8, 2021 by Paramax55

[justvisiting]

I don't know how you got that out of what I wrote. Commercial powder is pucked and corned. Pucked and corned powder is more dense and burns more slowly than granulated powder. That's what you want for guns. Powder that's like the powder used for guns.

[Paramax55]

I'm pretty sure that the slowest smokeless powders are quite a bit faster than the fastest black powder? Even in smokeless powders, the slower ones tend to be used for rifle and the faster ones for pistol. That was one of the biggest changes going to smokeless powders - the longer range the soldiers got. Wouldn't I want the fastest powder I can get?

[pyrokid]

Paramax, you are missing the grinding/mixing stage in your process, and jumping straight to granulating. I don't like your chances of producing good powder by just mixing your components together and then granulating. You need to ball mill them or find some other means of integrating them to increase the burn speed. Old commercial manufacturers used big wheel mills. I've seen these in pictures of Chinese powder production too. After this milling stage, the powder is ready for pressing or granulating. I recommend you search out the book "Gunpowder: Alchemy, Bombards, and Pyrotechnics: The History of the Explosive that Changed the World" by Jack Kelly and give it a read.

[justvisiting]

Paramax, you may very well be right. My attempt was to add to the info already provided by others, concerning making black powder for use in guns. In your scenario, maybe you do want granulated powder (after you make good powder If you know anybody on Ned's site, Mike Swisher is the guy that would probably give the best answer as to what you want, if your desire is to replace smokeless commercial powder with homemade black powder. Not to say that the guys here won't know- but i don't

[MikeL]

Smokeless powder is either ball or flake (generalization based on the 2 dozen or so powders that I reload with). I use Pyrodex or Triple 7 in my muzzleloader (50 cal rifle). I can use 1fG for the .50 cal but the Pyrodex is more convenient. It looks kind of like a pumped star with a hole down the middle. My cap and ball pistols use Goex ffG

 

Better still here's a table

 

Black Powder Granulations

Traditionally, black powder comes in different granulations. Each granulation has a different burn rate:

1f or Fg Largest granuation. Used for large caliber firearms

2f or FFg Used with .50cal and larger firearms and 10, 12, 16, 1n3 20 ga shotguns

3f or FFFg Used for .50 caliber and smaller revolvers

4f or FFFFg Used for flintlock primers only

[Paramax55]

Pyrokid... I'm not missing that part at all. It's just not part of this discussion. Ball milling is straight-forward and always necessary. I have a ball mill and plenty of lead. But I'll probably pick up the book you mentioned.

 

Justvisiting... I'm not familiar with Ned's site. Is it against forum rules to give a hint?

 

MikeL... I have some old GOEX, but I'm not sure what size it is. I'll have a look when I get home. I fired it in a muzzleloader my stepdad made 40 years ago. I always wondered what the sights were for on that gun - the accuracy was the same whether your eyes were open or not.

[Bourbon]

I use FF for my 50 and 54 and FFF for my 36.

 

Well, I used to. Haven't shot them in almost 20 years.

[MikeL]

Buying Goex isn't a cheap proposition these days. Here's some typical load data for powder and caliber that I've reloaded a lot of. CUP - Copper Unit of Pressure. is used to determine chamber pressure (really important data point for modern cartridges). CUP and PSI aren't interchangeable. CUP rises rapidly one ignition occurs. Even with "slow" powder.

 

There's one bit of info that I almost forgot - when you load black powder in a modern cartridge DO NOT LEAVE ANY SPACE between the powder and the bullet. The .45-70 uses wadding between the charge and bullet. Pistols, for the most part are loaded by loosely filling the case to the rim and seating the bullet into that. aka compressed load. Compressed load with modern powder can be bad... I typically load for accuracy in long guns (like the .338 Edge) so compressed loads for me are off the table.

 

This is a better explanation: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/10/cup-vs-psi-whats-the-difference-in-pressure-measurements/

 

And this is relative to the first paragraph and about as useless now that I think about it.

 

BULLET WEIGHT

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP

Starting Loads Maximum Loads Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Hodgdon HS-6 BUY NOW 0.451" 1.200" 8.0 790 14,400 CUP 8.2 825 15,400 CUP

BULLET WEIGHT

230 GR. LRN

Starting Loads Maximum Loads Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Hodgdon HS-6 BUY NOW 0.452" 1.200" 7.0 751 12,900 CUP 8.0 859 16,600 CUP

[SeaMonkey]

Here are several helpful videos from Pyro Rebel:

 

How I make FAST Black Powder

 

How to Granulate Black Powder

 

Make your own Charcoal - Easy - TLUD Method - DIY

 

How to make Dextrin

 

 

Very basic approach.

[Bourbon]

 

There's one bit of info that I almost forgot - when you load black powder in a modern cartridge DO NOT LEAVE ANY SPACE between the powder and the bullet.

 

Thanks for straightening me out on that. I changed my comment above and removed the sentence about compaction... Good info you left up there.

[MikeL]

Thanks for straightening me out on that. I changed my comment above and removed the sentence about compaction... Good info you left up there.

 

I almost forgot about the space thing. That come from way down in the memory banks. I want, and have wanted, a .45-70 for decades. Not the "Quigley Rifle" made famous by the movie. It played well in the movie, .45-110, but the .45-70.Sharps. It is a better shooter. Two things kept me from owning one, price and price. Ok three, reloading for it is kind of like fireworking, you can mess yourself up if you make a mistake. I still want one but not at $3,639.00 a copy. And it needs upgrades that will add another grand to it...

[Bourbon]

$3,639.00

 

I quit buying firearms around 16 years ago and ended at an undisclosed amount. I can honestly say I have never paid more then $600.00 for a single one. I never bought anything extravagant.

 

It kills me watching buddies fork out 4-8 grand for their designer AK's and such. They do it all day long. I guess I might, if I could drive it, and shoot it at the same. time.

[MikeL]

I bought a custom, two actually. One 338 Edge and one .20 Beggs (same builder, a few years apart). Both came with Nightforce scopes on them.The .338 is crazy accurate, If you miss it's on you not the rifle. Like sub 1 minute accurate. 1.5" at 800 yards accurate. The .20 is accurate but because the bullet is so light it isn't as consistent. I wouldn't buy either again but I'm glad I have them.

[Paramax55]

Seamonkey... thanks for the links. I've seen his stuff before and that's what got me on the granulation. His method of making charcoal sure uses a lot less propane than mine does.