Peptobismal for cracking stars? (Bismuth subsalicylate)

[Smokelvr]

I'm asking because maybe someone knows, and if Bis subcarbonate works, why wouldn't salicylate?

 

[Mumbles]

It has more fuel value as opposed to being just an oxide/carbonate available for a thermite/goldschmidt type reaction. Its worth a shot still. That said pepto-bismol probably isn't a very cost effective way to get it. There are going to be additives and each bottle of liquid probably only contains about 8g of bismuth subsalicylate. The tablets probably aren't much more cost effective, but saves from having to get it dry, and will likely have fillers and other things.

[Smokelvr]

Thats the thing, Pink Bismuth (aka, when the chemist mixed it up for you fresh at the local pharmacy...)

is pretty cheap if you can find it? but refining it back out from pepto... naw

 

I'd think it would be easier to make subcarbonate by heating powdered in a CO2 retort or just soaking in soda water first.

[MadMat]

I did a search and found 96% bismuth subsalicylate from Alpha Aesar for ......$92.20 for 250 grams or $275 for 1kg! Sigma Aldrich has Bismuth Subnitrate (another possibility) for $58.10 for 5 grams. Not exactly a cheaper alternative if you ask me. That being said, I doubt PetoBismol would even work without a lot of refinement and then you would end up with very little usable chemical

Edited December 18, 2020 by MadMat

[SharkWhisperer]

There are plenty of Chinese vendors on Alibaba and other places that will sell you bismuth compounds in large quantity for very low (comparatively vs what you've seen) prices. Bismuth is not exactly rare but has limited practical/commercial utility.

 

Here in the US, currently at least, the cheapest I know of in hobbyist quantities (pounds/kilos instead of barrels/tons) is Chris at FWC....at $20/pound it's one of the more expensive pyro chems you'll purchase (titanium a close second), but I have not seen a lower price in the US after exhaustive searching. His stuff is top-notch and makes the finest of DEs and crackle.

 

You'll go through an enormous quantity of Pepto Bismol or related, whether solid or liquid, to end up with a trivial amount of active comp at great cost, after lengthy & expensive isolation/purification steps. Simply not worth it...

 

Or...you could just use the Chicom's recipes that use lead at great savings, like they still do for imported crackle, but please join us in moving away from using lead Pb in hobbyist comps.

 

By the way, Sigma-Aldrich, at any cost, won't set you up a vendor account and mail you chems without thorough vetting to establish a trackable account. Hell, they used to sell ketamine super cheap before it got scheduled by the DEA. Those days are long long over. There are absolutely zero chems that Sigma/Aldrich offers that are in the hobbyist pyro budget. I've got over 20 years experience in a biomed lab, with easily over a million $ in chem purchases over that time, and Mumbles clearly has a direct academic/industry history, so ask him if you doubt my claims.

 

Spend $20 and see where a pound of commercially available pyro Bi₂O₃ will get you--well worth it, in my opinion.

 

That said, always willing to chip in on a bulk purchase..

 

Have fun. Stay safe. And know all of the legalities in your neighborhood, including and beyond federal law.

[Smokelvr]

Shark... I get that, but for $20 I can buy two boxes (72 feet) of cracking whips at my usual fireworks stand

[SharkWhisperer]

Shark... I get that, but for $20 I can buy two boxes (72 feet) of cracking whips at my usual fireworks stand

Here's the scoop with Magic/crackling whips. You strip them down (I have) and you'll get a decent, but small quantity of crackling microstars (lead-based, no doubt). They are already primed and are useful for ground effects. But they are wimpy as can be for aerial effects, even if buried inside a matrix of other comps--they work for their purposes (close-in ground based) but don't have the "oomph" or the volume for distant (aerial) effects. You'll be disappointed. The sheer volume of true DEs that you can get from a pound of Bi₂0₃ (especially if you use it 50:50 with CuO instead of the Bi-heavy original lead-free comps--works just as well in my hands) by far exceeds your Magic Whip-stripped DEs, at much cheaper cost overall. That said, Whip-stripped DEs are great for embedding within fountain formulas or for making larger crackle-based ground effects than you started with. But for crackling star cores, they won't be a useful substitute--you'll find yourself let down by the non-event of a 1.5 mm Chicom whip DE going off at several hundred feet--if you even hear them. You can try it, but from experience (others have done this ad nauseum, with crap results), you'll be wondering why you just didn't bite the bullet and screen-cut/reprime some heavily primed sheets of crackle comp into stars in the first place.

 

Edit for additional info: All that said, if you remain adamant about extracting crackle from commercial products, The Jumbo crackling balls contain a whole lot more DEs/$ than Magic Whips, and they're louder. And much cheaper overall. The ones I get have a bag of loose DEs inside a 1.25" plastic ball, and they're literally stuffed. Either a slow-flash or BP/flash burst within them (definitely not BP alone). In low quantities they're $1.50/bag of three. For commercial ground effects, they're actually rather nice--you'll get a 20-foot diameter wall of crackle from them. Just need to check that they're not the tiny ones that have crackle embedded within a solid matrix, usually molded into a plastic insert--they're wimpy to begin with and good luck extracting DEs from them without major effort. Complete waste of time.

 

Make your own. Loud and proud! Cost is not too crazy when a pound of Bi₂O₃ gives you nearly a kilo of DEs... CuO is $8.50/lb. So, loosely estimating, a pound of DEs (a LOT) will cost you about $15-16 all in (+MgAl, NC lacquer) before priming, which is not trivial but not exhorbitant. Compared to the Chicoms lead-based DEs that probably cost a quarter of that or even less... You could take that route--many do in countries where lead's cheap and Bi is difficult to obtain, but that's a personal decision regarding money vs the environment. Anyways, sizing is critical, as anybody that's ever made DEs appreciates. They work. Well. Magic Whip DEs are fun for the backyard but are complete kaka for anything aerial or distant.

Edited December 20, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[Smokelvr]

I'll get there, one day

[SeaMonkey]

Speaking of Lead and China, I just recently tried to order some Lead Dioxide over Titanium Anodes from

a producer in China and discovered that because of new anti-pollution laws going into effect in China

that the manufacture of Lead Dioxide Anodes was suspended for an indefinite period and they are therefore

not available.

 

I wonder if those laws will have any impact on fireworks for export. Will the day come when Chinese fireworks

are lead-free?

[WSM]

I did a search and found 96% bismuth subsalicylate from Alpha Aesar for ......$92.20 for 250 grams or $275 for 1kg! Sigma Aldrich has Bismuth Subnitrate (another possibility) for $58.10 for 5 grams. Not exactly a cheaper alternative if you ask me. That being said, I doubt PetoBismol would even work without a lot of refinement and then you would end up with very little usable chemical

 

 

Bismuth subnitrate isn't merely a possibility, it definitely works; possibly better than simple bismuth oxide.

 

CJW originally worked with both bismuth oxide AND bismuth subnitrate, with excellent results. Later, others contributed to the effort by discovering a larger percentage of aluminum in the magnalium enhanced the crackling effect. This was accomplished by simply adding aluminum power to the mix using magnalium, effectively altering the magnesium/aluminum ratio. See Pyrotechnica XIV for his initial published work on the subject.

 

WSM

[SeaMonkey]

Here is a less expensive source for Bismuth Subnitrate.

 

There are probably others.

[Smokelvr]

 

 

Bismuth subnitrate isn't merely a possibility, it definitely works; possibly better than simple bismuth oxide.

 

CJW originally worked with both bismuth oxide AND bismuth subnitrate, with excellent results. Later, others contributed to the effort by discovering a larger percentage of aluminum in the magnalium enhanced the crackling effect. This was accomplished by simply adding aluminum power to the mix using magnalium, effectively altering the magnesium/aluminum ratio. See Pyrotechnica XIV for his initial published work on the subject.

 

WSM

Looking at the structure? the subnitrate is a double oxidizer having both a Bi-O complex and a NO3 complex?

So it's a hi oxidizer with a metal fuel? that's stable, and self limiting hence just crackles instead of one big boom?