black powder (separately milled/ screened) and wood discussion

[SignalKanboom]

I want to thank everyone for the advice! I took a little bit from everyone and honed my technique. My ball mill and jars are optimized and I have learned that charcoal is the main factor assuming the kn03 and sulfur is good. I got ahold of some balsa wood to make charcoal with. I killed my sulfur and charcoal for about an hour, then I killed my kn03 separately. Once they were an air float consistency I screened all 3 components together 1 time. This yielded the fastest powder I have made, or seen on videos I have watched. It is not crazy fast like people that are going for that, but it is faster than probably needed for the small amount of milling and screening.

 

I am posting this to discuss various woods for charcoal. Not only was I told by everyone that the charcoal has the largest margin of variation, I have seen this in my own testing. Balsa wood is very expensive being native to tropical environments. It makes extremely good bp with very little effort. I have found sources for saw dust, but I would like to discuss the American native species that are most comparable to balsa. Paulownia; as of late, has been tested to see if it can successfully be grown in America. It seems to be to early to tell and the only suppliers are still importing at a high price. What are similar species that can be obtained in America that anyone on the forum here knows of?

 

 

I will continue to test woods and report my finding, even if most of the pros here already know this info. Im hoping some of the newbies like me will see it and maybe have an easier time starting out. It is way easier to just buy any old easily obtained charcoal to attempt making your first black powder, but if the proper wood is used and you make your own, this process can be much cheaper/simpler.

 

To the new guys that want to make bp and dont want to invest a whole lot and cant mill all 3 components together. Blade milling your charcoal and sulfur, then your kno3, and screening them together through a set of screen all the way to 60 mesh will give you a very very fast powder. Please let me know what everyone things about the wood and if they have any input.

[MadMat]

I don't know where you got your information because Paulownia does grow in the U.S. In fact, it is considered an invasive species because it grows so fast that it "shades out" native trees. It also is very prolific and is banned in some states. Other names for Paulownia are Empress trees and Princess trees. As far as good wood for making BP charcoal, I have had very good success with either cedar or black willow. I live in northern Missouri and there are cedar tress EVERYWHERE around here. If you want to look for black willow, look around ponds and stream banks. these trees love being around water

Edited October 25, 2020 by MadMat

[SeaMonkey]

In Southern California we have lots of Eucalyptus trees and Pepper trees. Both are good sources of

wood for Black Powder charcoal. I've been using Pepper tree wood for several years with good

result since I have one in my back yard and my neighbor has one also. They grow quite fast.

[Arthur]

The best woods are those that make powder easily and are available cheaply in your locality.

 

In the UK Willow is the nominal best wood with red alder being also commercially useful. These woods grow widely and are not commercial hardwoods so come cheaply.

In some other parts of the world paulownia is almost a weed and cheap and very functional for powder.

 

Balsa and vine (grape) makes very fast powder. In the USA Eastern Red Cedar is available ready milled to pet bedding shavings and fabulously easy to convert to good fast powder.

 

Good charcoal will absorb moisture from the air at least it's own weight can be invisibly held there. This means that when you weigh out charcoal half of that weight could be water, or your 15g of charcoal could be 7.5g of powder and 7.5g of water -this is what messes with formulations.

At extremes charcoal can be 50% water but nitrate or sulphur hold only 1 - 2% so formulations will be way off in damp conditions and the added water is largely responsible for clumping in a mill.

[Mumbles]

If you're looking for cheap balsa, check out Specialized Balsa. Sawdust is $1 a pound. http://www.specializedbalsa.com/products/balsa_scraps.php

 

Otherwise basically anything homemade is going to be a decent. Avoid things that tend to be actively sticky or hard as a rock and you've pretty much got a recipe for success. The cooking itself is probably just as critical of a variable. You'll want to see what works and try to be consistent in how you make it. TLUD cookers tend to simplify this quite a bit.

 

Many woods have been used with great success. Willow, ERC, plum, paulownia, alder, balsa, Goex is reported to use Maple, Ash, white pine, Aspen, Alder Buckthorn, Poplar, Dogwood, Cottonwood, Beech, etc. Those are just what immediately comes to mind of what friends have used in the past.

[SharkWhisperer]

If you're looking for cheap balsa, check out Specialized Balsa. Sawdust is $1 a pound. http://www.specializedbalsa.com/products/balsa_scraps.php

But you left out the mandatory $11/box charge and the estimated $40-80 shipping fees depending where you are in the US. That can quickly make a $1 pound into a $10+ pound of sawdust

[Arthur]

For many people having a good reliable powder that is consistent from batch to batch and fast enough, is better than having powder that is ultra fast but hyper sensitive,(straw charcoal BP), or batch variable so you never know how much to use. Balsa and Vine charcoals make fast powder but are irregularly available (here at least) and expensive.

 

There is a good sound business reason why commercial BP is not the fastest possible but is powerful and is very reliable and repeatable from batch to batch.

[SignalKanboom]

When I used red cedar pet bedding it produced horrible bp. I wi try it again, Now that I have figured out separate component milling. I cant imagine that it is gonna be any better considering I milled all the comps together when I tried to use the red cedar pet bedding charcoal and it came out 1/2 as fast as this balsa bp that was screened once through a 60 mesh.

 

Madmat, I apologize for not being specific enough. There is not a market for paulownia sourced from the US. It is highly expensive because of its volume and often times the import costs. There are many programs and memberships to propagate and grow paulownia to try and create a larger consumer market for the wood in America, the same goes for balsa. There will be a huge boom in the demand of these woods in industries other than pyro. If you know of a place that has cheap paulownia sourced from America please let me know. The shipping and import costs drive the prices up and no local companies carry these woods as lumber.

[SeaMonkey]

Paulownia is very popular in Asia and is grown commercially for lots of

uses. When you hold a piece of dried Paulownia in your hand you find

that it is light and quite soft. Not as soft and light as Balsa but close.

[SignalKanboom]

Paulownia is very popular in Asia and is grown commercially for lots of

uses. When you hold a piece of dried Paulownia in your hand you find

that it is light and quite soft. Not as soft and light as Balsa but close.

Does it provide enough to never have to outsource?

[Bourbon]

I would suggest screening at least three times even though one time yielded great results. When in doubt, check your local tree trimming services for odd woods around. Some of these folks don't mind saving a couple chunks for ya free, or even a couple bucks is worth it.

[SignalKanboom]

Thats a good idea (tree trimming service). I screened once again tonight and the stuff is dang near flash like, I dont need it that fast and my have to weaken it with something else, so Im not sure I should screen it three more times. It takes a long time running it through that 60 mesh screen.

[Bourbon]

The idea behind screening, until completely incorporated is to provide consistency. If screening provides faster yields, it's not fully incorporated, and you'll have inconsistent results. Such as, fluctuating motors that lead to cato's, various bursts or lifts. (Essentially, hot and cool spots.) A no less than 3, is just one of those numbers that most go by. You can always do something like, 2-40's and 1-60 just to make sure everything is evenly distributed.

 

I'm just posting for conversation here, and is nothing more than opinion. Take it as bar BS'ing over a beer. Glad it's all coming together for ya. Stick with what works for you, and what your comfy with.

[MikeL]

I've discussed this in various other topics about other things but this one seems to be a better, more focused topic

 

I just finished milling charcoal from some grafted pecan sheds. Anyone that has grafted or native pecan trees knows that they produce a lot of "yard trash". I'm going to try it for BP at some point.

 

When in NW NM I don't have access to pecan sheds (not a problem, it's just the situation). Here's a list of native trees found in NM. It's not all inclusive but it's not a bad list. Do any of these look useful? What type of tree am I looking for? Ie what makes a good BP charcoal tree?

Being on the list doesn't imply accessible.

 

Bigtooth Maple

Netleaf Hackberry

Desert Willow

New Mexico Olive

One-seed Juniper (Cypress Family)

Rocky Mountain Juniper (Cypress Family)

Pinyon Pine

Ponderosa Pine

Valley Cottonwood (Willow Family)

Screwbean Mesquite

Gambel Oak (Beech Family)

Shrub Live Oak

New Mexico Locust

Western Soapberry

Edited October 26, 2020 by MikeL

[Arthur]

Remember that 2x4 lumber especially offcuts and short bits is highly usable as pine. Old timber from demolition may be less impregnated with preservatives.

[Bourbon]

Look through your list and google each one. You're looking for fastest growth and lowest hardness for hot and fast. If your looking for effects (sparks and tails) other members will have to chime in. I hear lots of good things about the different grades of pine like easy to find ones such as Arthur just mentioned, being hot enough, and pretty.

[Mumbles]

My gut impression would start with the Desert Willow or Valley Cottonwood for BP. The Bigtooth Maple would be my 3rd choice. One of the pines should be good for sparks.

[justvisiting]

No discussion about BP charcoals would be complete without this link:

 

http://wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

 

I'd say there are 2 basic kinds of 'BP charcoal':

 

The kinds that make fast BP very easily, like ERC pet bedding, and balsa.

 

The kinds that require extra milling and/or formula alteration to make good BP. Red oak is a good example.

 

There are very few charcoals that are absolutely no good for BP. Bamboo comes to mind.

[MikeL]

I had completely discounted pine. I have quite a bit of scrap 2x4's, untreated. Man... I wish I had known about this before I tore down and burned the old out buildings on the place...

 

My gut impression would start with the Desert Willow or Valley Cottonwood for BP. The Bigtooth Maple would be my 3rd choice. One of the pines should be good for sparks.

 

I have a Valley Cottonwood about 10' from the back door so that's where I'll get my material. I've seen a few Maples in the neighborhood that I pass through on the way to work but I think the owner would notice if I tried to "borrow" a limb or two

 

No discussion about BP charcoals would be complete without this link:

 

http://wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

 

I'd say there are 2 basic kinds of 'BP charcoal':

 

The kinds that make fast BP very easily, like ERC pet bedding, and balsa.

 

The kinds that require extra milling and/or formula alteration to make good BP. Red oak is a good example.

 

There are very few charcoals that are absolutely no good for BP. Bamboo comes to mind.

 

That's a pretty good link. Out of my choices here in NM the Cottonwood seems to be the best. Or at least the one to try next. I saw mesquite on his list. Once I can work with larger limbs I was planning to make some mesquite charcoal for my son-in-laws Green Egg. I might have to test that.

 

Look through your list and google each one. You're looking for fastest growth and lowest hardness for hot and fast. If your looking for effects (sparks and tails) other members will have to chime in. I hear lots of good things about the different grades of pine like easy to find ones such as Arthur just mentioned, being hot enough, and pretty.

 

Today, I'm looking for fast but all useful charcoal types are the end goal. The Pecan charcoal was the first charcoal that I've ever made. I used a small metal coffee can with a metal lid (small hole in the top of the lid) on my propane grill. It worked great but it was a too small. It was a good exercise and now I have a better idea of what I need to do now.

[Bourbon]

DuckDuck search: Pecan tree growth rate is very fast. Some trees can gain up to 3-5 feet per year.) Looks pretty good too me for medium/fast BP or RP.

 

Please let us know your results, before and after granulating. Or, whatever you do. I'm interested in your opinion of the pecan. Don't be afraid of posting nonscientific results. I would love to hear/read/see!

[Arthur]

The old English lore about charcoal says -take the young growth from the size of a man's thumb to his arm of fast growing trees that live near water. Maybe you can apply this in some form to your trees and needs.

 

Never be afraid of finding some second use timber or even the waney edge pieces, after all you are going to char it.

 

Typically you will get about 10% of the freshly sawn weight in charcoal. If you char dried wood the yield is usually around 25% so it saves fuel to pick the wood one year and use it dried the next year. Stick wood is best debarked first. Anything going into your charcoal oven is best cut into small pieces, matchstick size up to half inch square, If you can trim it all to a good size and totally fill the tin almost tight you will get the best yield from each run, the sticks shrink as they fully try then shrink more as they char.

 

Big log wood tends to make less effective powder.

Once a year go shop for something in a tin that will make a good retort, The family think it's biscuits you've bought you glance at the metal tin and see a charcoal oven

Edited October 27, 2020 by Arthur

[MikeL]

DuckDuck search: Pecan tree growth rate is very fast. Some trees can gain up to 3-5 feet per year.) Looks pretty good too me for medium/fast BP or RP.

 

Please let us know your results, before and after granulating. Or, whatever you do. I'm interested in your opinion of the pecan. Don't be afraid of posting nonscientific results. I would love to hear/read/see!

 

Will do. It's in the ball mill right now. I only bought 5#'s of lead and ran the mill for 4 hours. The mill is "best used" with 35# and I have an additional 30# on the way. I knew when I dumped the lead in I had shorted myself. Everything is a learning process.

 

The old English lore about charcoal says -take the young growth from the size of a man's thumb to his arm of fast growing trees that live near water. Maybe you can apply this in some form to your trees and needs.

 

Never be afraid of finding some second use timber or even the waney edge pieces, after all you are going to char it.

 

Typically you will get about 10% of the freshly sawn weight in charcoal. If you char dried wood the yield is usually around 25% so it saves fuel to pick the wood one year and use it dried the next year. Stick wood is best debarked first. Anything going into your charcoal oven is best cut into small pieces, matchstick size up to half inch square, If you can trim it all to a good size and totally fill the tin almost tight you will get the best yield from each run, the sticks shrink as they fully try then shrink more as they char.

 

Big log wood tends to make less effective powder.

Once a year go shop for something in a tin that will make a good retort, The family think it's biscuits you've bought you glance at the metal tin and see a charcoal oven

 

I have limbs anywhere from twig to 4" diameter. Some of it is stuff I cut into 18" lengths and stacked. Some if it looks more like a brush pile. All previously mentioned is seasoned wood.

 

One big limb, still green, just cracked off of a tree. It's still got leaves and pecans on it so I left it alone for now.

 

If this works I have a very good and repeatable supply. I also have a chipper that's driven by a tractor PTO but my tractor is at my daughters house. I can get that back and chip it all down to about a 50 gallon drum worth of chips over Thanksgiving. Maybe two drums. 28 trees drop about a "brush pile" every year and I'd rather make it into charcoal than burn it outright like I used to. I may leave some limbs whole and try to make lump charcoal for my son-in-laws grill.

 

I'd like to find a 5 gallon metal bucket with a metal lid. Actually... I found some on Amazon for $15 to $40 each. Not terrible but if I could "find" something that would be better.

[Arthur]

One person used to light a fire with sticks inside a 50gal drum then steadily fill the drum, then as it burned he would keep it topped up with minimal air going in at the bottom. When he was ready he'd simply seal a lid on with mud/clay and open it next day. Now 50gal of charcoal is a lot! and it's one kind of wood. it was then sieved through 500 or 600 mesh and all the white ash went through and serious loads of fine charcoal remained.

 

If you intend to use a chipper then check that the sticks are debarked first.

[MikeL]

Debarking pecan is going to be the hard part. The bark is attached pretty well.

[SignalKanboom]

If you're looking for cheap balsa, check out Specialized Balsa. Sawdust is $1 a pound. http://www.specializedbalsa.com/products/balsa_scraps.php

 

Otherwise basically anything homemade is going to be a decent. Avoid things that tend to be actively sticky or hard as a rock and you've pretty much got a recipe for success. The cooking itself is probably just as critical of a variable. You'll want to see what works and try to be consistent in how you make it. TLUD cookers tend to simplify this quite a bit.

 

Many woods have been used with great success. Willow, ERC, plum, paulownia, alder, balsa, Goex is reported to use Maple, Ash, white pine, Aspen, Alder Buckthorn, Poplar, Dogwood, Cottonwood, Beech, etc. Those are just what immediately comes to mind of what friends have used in the past.

Thanks for the new source on balsa mumbles, I want to get some paulownia next and try that. I was told by richtee to try newspaper as well, but Im actually having a hard time finding recycled news paper.