Ping pong balls dissolved in acetone

[Bigfatorange]

Does anyone know if I use ping pong balls as NC lacquer in a crackle comp, would it work??

[Arthur]

Ping pong balls were NC but some manufacturers changed to something less flammable. So now the only answer is "it depends!".

[PRANAB]

I have a little knowledge, I think it will help you ...

The ping pong ball which gives camphor smell is good for making NC...

Actually it works for me...

Thanks...😃😃

[kingkama]

Use phenolic resin is better and less dangerous.

[Bigfatorange]

And would phenolic resin work for crackle and if yes how would I prep it

[Pyrophury]

I can confirm that celluloid ping pong balls dissolved in acetone will work, but it takes trial and error getting the consistency right.

 

I've experimented a lot with phenolic resin, in particular to make core-less rolled microstars (can't cut or screen slice with phenolic resin) but I didn't have very satisfactory results and I found the method very difficult and not really practical on a small scale. Far easier to use NC, roll out to desired thickness and push through a mesh screen.

[kingkama]

I have no problem to cut or granulate or roll, the trick is in use the less phenolic is possible and add a secondary low temp fuel like sulfur, pvb can be also a good binder, I use the pb red oxide, MgAl and cu oxide recipe, I don't use other recipe cause are extremely expensive. So at the end the 10% of NC lacquer can e substitute from phenolic and Sulphur.

Imo if is the first time you do crackling use NC is better cause result is easy to obtain than others binders. NC can be made from hunting shells, bibase powders are all good just add 80 grams of acetone every 10 grams of smokeless powder.

Edited October 8, 2020 by kingkama

[Richtee]

I don’t mind newbie questions, but three different threads IS a tad annoying. Patience and vigilance grasshopper.

[Bigfatorange]

Sorry still kinda new to this site next time I will be more careful on double posting

[rellim]

Table tennis balls work just fine for crackle though it's possible that it might make the dough stickier. I weigh out 3% of the composition weight and dissolve it in acetone (it takes a while). Add additional acetone or MEK to get the desired consistency.

 

You can get 40 Kevenz balls for around 11 dollars from Amazon.

[MadMat]

Ping pong balls can be made of two different materials: Cellulose nitrate AKA nitrocellulose (good for making NC lacquer binder) or cellulose acetate (bad for making MC lacquer). I guess fewer and fewer ping pong balls are made of the good stuff anymore. I simply go to a sporting goods store that sell reloading supplies and buy Green Dot Smokeless power. By doing this, you will be rewarded with something that gives good consistent results. Do not be concerned if green dot powder doesn't dissolve in acetone immediately; Sometimes, it can take a little while. If you can't find Green Dot, any double-base smokeless powder will do. If you have too many choices, always pick the powder designed for reloading shotgun shells. This powder is shaped like flakes as opposed to rifle powder, which is shaped like tiny rods. The flakes dissolve easier than the rods

Edited October 11, 2020 by MadMat

[rellim]

2% dextrin will bind crackle. The composition is very dense due to the heavy metal oxides so 2% is plenty.

[tortoise]

I just got 360 celluloid ping-pong balls for $83.39 from pingpongdepot.com . I ordered Donic-Schildkrot Color Popps Balls Pack of 6. They have other celluloid balls. I all ready ordered and received 120 of these and they burn tested as celluloid. A 6 pack is$1.90.

[MadMat]

How much do those 360 ping-pong balls weigh? I ask because www,grafs.com has 4 lbs of Alliant Green Dot powder for $88.99. Their Blue Dot powder, which is perfectly fine to use as well, is $82.99 for 4 pounds. They also sell 1 pound containers for around $24-$25 Submitted for your comparison.

Edited November 26, 2020 by MadMat

[tortoise]

I just weighed 5 balls and they they weighed 13 grams. Times 360 = 4680 grams. That is about 10.318 pounds if my math is right.

[SharkWhisperer]

I just weighed 5 balls and they they weighed 13 grams. Times 360 = 4680 grams. That is about 10.318 pounds if my math is right.

Please confirm whether each ball weighed 13 grams (hard to believe nearly half an ounce per ball) or all 5 together weighed 13 grams? Regulation ping-pong balls are under 3g each, for sure. If so, you might need to adjust your calculation (i.e., divide your final value by 5). You need to be 100% accurate with your mass measurements for everything pyro, or painfully energetic mistakes can occur. I think your math might be off...

 

You're in FL. Why not just buy a pound of shotshell reloading powder (flakes, not pellets), that's meant to burn?

[tortoise]

You are right i for got to divide by 5.

[MadMat]

Calculated out you paid $83.39 for 936 grams of ping-pong balls or approximately 2 pounds. I stand by my earlier comment: buy the double base shotgun reloading powder (green dot or blue dot). It is considerably cheaper and its performance is perfect and will be consistent.

Edited November 26, 2020 by MadMat

[MadMat]

A little more information. As was mentioned earlier, true nitrocellulose ping-pong balls have a distinctive smell from the use of camphor as a plasticizing agent. This is an undesirable additive for pyro work. Double base smokeless powder has a small percentage of nitroglycerin in it, which is actually a good thing for pyro work. For my money, I always go with the smokeless powder

Edited November 26, 2020 by MadMat

[SharkWhisperer]

You are right i for got to divide by 5.

Well, that's why we have a Newbie section. The simplest mistakes are sometimes the easiest to make. That said, please always double check your calculations. A 5-fold mistake in measuring a chem in pyro comps could leave you 1) wondering why things just won't work, and occasionally 2) might produce an unstable and potentially dangerous comp that could hurt you.

 

If you don't already, it's a very very good idea to keep detailed notes of all of your pyro activities--weights, techniques, formulas, mixing/milling times/conditions, builds, issues to correct, how it worked vs expectations, mental notes (now wriitten) on improvement/modification, even the weather that day ... A dedicated notebook will fill up quickly if you're active. And it will save you time, money, and headaches being able to refer to it ("OH, that's how I did it last time!") when repeating tasks/builds that you haven't done in awhile, or when you're trying to troubleshoot a comp or effect. Really useful at helping you to move forward without reinventing the wheel or repeating past mistakes.

 

So, you have a couple of pounds of cellulose nitrate ping-pong balls...what do you plan to do with that much NC lacquer? Dunno, I make several kilos of crackle/DEs over a year, and a pound of NC (or ping-pong balls) goes a loooooooooong way... At least your balls won't get old and crusty anytime soon, so should last for years. But seems to me that you spent a lot of loot on something that you won't use up for a long time when you could have applied some of that money towards purchasing other pyro essentials that you might not have yet. To each their own.

 

Again, though, you really need to please be completely confident in your calculations. And if you lifted up your bag of ping pong balls, common sense should have alarmed you to the fact that you probably had much less than 10+ (!) pounds of celluloid balls. Double-checking calculations is not something that's only important for beginning pyros. It's equally essential for even the most advanced and experienced fireworkers. But you're not making oatmeal cookies where screwing up the recipe just tastes crummy. In pyro, screwing up the recipe (or amounts of a comp used in a device) can occasionally be flamingly painful.

 

Anyways, stick around and be comfortable running things (ideas, calculations, questions, concerns...) past the folks here while you're getting started. Fireworking is a lot of fun, moreso when done with safety in mind, and it seems that you do the requisite background research before posting--that is nice and that will earn you much more respect here than newbies that ask for handholding and easy answers.

 

Welcome. But just what are your plans for all of those ping-pong balls, hah ha?!?

Edited November 26, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[SharkWhisperer]

Calculated out you paid $83.39 for 936 grams of ping-pong balls or approximately 2 pounds. I stand by my earlier comment: buy the double base shotgun reloading powder (green dot or blue dot). It is considerably cheaper and its performance is perfect and will be consistent.

I'm guessing our friend is a minor, because in FL you can walk into Cabellas/BassPro (or any other of many retailers), pay $15-20, and walk out with a pound of smokeless without need for any firearms FID card (nanny states) or even ID if you look over 18.

 

Still, a lot of people who don't have easy access to smokeless powders (many of our EU friends,for example, and minors in the US with unenthusiastic parents) still get away with using ping-pong balls for NC lacquer. Although it is definitely suboptimal (camphor and other ingredients, low nitration %, uncertain stabilizers, no NG) versus smokeless, it still has utility apparently.

 

Regarding doublebase (NC + NG) vs singlebase (NC only), I have used both and have not noticed any difference in performance in crackle comps or rocket igniter pyrogen comps between the two (empirically--never done a side-by-side comparison). Some swear by the inclusion of a little NG in doublebase. Some purists want NC only. Both have stabilizers added, which is why ammo lasts almost forever.

 

I also have pure NC as guncotton 12.5-13% nitration, but that remains frozen wet in the freezer since purchase a few years ago and has never been tested. Using smokeless powder is just easier than drying out a portion of NC from the freezer, and the pure stuff has no stabilizers I think (from Firefox, $16/"lb", after multiple never-again headaches dealing with them--just not worth it). Guitar lacquer (Mohawk/Behlen) also works, but is expensive--used for a few hundred rocket igniters, maybe an ounce (28g for our Euro folks), so 31 oz is ageing nicely in my storeroom (3 years now!).

Edited November 26, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[MikeL]

Alliant Green Dot. 4# jug

 

Powder Valley - $84.50 plus shipping. Out of stock.

Midway - $86.50 plus shipping. Out of stock, no backorder

Reloading Unlimited. In stock.$108.99 plus shipping

Ballistic Products. Out of stock.

Bass Pro Shops. Currently not available online

Graf and Sons - Out of stock

Brownells - Out of stock

 

Those ping pong balls might come in handy...

[shockie]

Ping pong balls can be made of two different materials: Cellulose nitrate AKA nitrocellulose (good for making NC lacquer binder) or cellulose acetate (bad for making MC lacquer). I guess fewer and fewer ping pong balls are made of the good stuff anymore. I simply go to a sporting goods store that sell reloading supplies and buy Green Dot Smokeless power. By doing this, you will be rewarded with something that gives good consistent results. Do not be concerned if green dot powder doesn't dissolve in acetone immediately; Sometimes, it can take a little while. If you can't find Green Dot, any double-base smokeless powder will do. If you have too many choices, always pick the powder designed for reloading shotgun shells. This powder is shaped like flakes as opposed to rifle powder, which is shaped like tiny rods. The flakes dissolve easier than the rods

 

Green Dot is a double-base smokeless powder that has both nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin in it .

 

What you want to make nitrocellulose is a single base powder that only has nitrocellulose in it.

 

https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/n100-powders/

https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Safety-data-Sheet-N100-series-3N38-N32C-JK6-24N41-20N29.pdf

 

Notice that the NC amount is 80> to <99 % by weight... NO Nitro-G

The two "Di" ingredients are plasticizer/burn rate modifiers....

 

goes for about $35 per lb .....

 

or get some NC flake from firefox enterprises.... it comes in water.....you take it out of the water, let the water evaporate( ie let it air dry) then add NC flake + acetone.....

Edited November 26, 2020 by shockie

[MikeL]

 

Ping pong balls can be made of two different materials: Cellulose nitrate AKA nitrocellulose (good for making NC lacquer binder) or cellulose acetate (bad for making MC lacquer). I guess fewer and fewer ping pong balls are made of the good stuff anymore. I simply go to a sporting goods store that sell reloading supplies and buy Green Dot Smokeless power. By doing this, you will be rewarded with something that gives good consistent results. Do not be concerned if green dot powder doesn't dissolve in acetone immediately; Sometimes, it can take a little while. If you can't find Green Dot, any double-base smokeless powder will do. If you have too many choices, always pick the powder designed for reloading shotgun shells. This powder is shaped like flakes as opposed to rifle powder, which is shaped like tiny rods. The flakes dissolve easier than the rods

 

Green Dot is a double-base smokeless powder that has both nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin in it .

 

What you want to make nitrocellulose is a single base powder that only has nitrocellulose in it.

 

https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/n100-powders/

https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Safety-data-Sheet-N100-series-3N38-N32C-JK6-24N41-20N29.pdf

 

Notice that the NC amount is 80> to <99 % by weight... NO Nitro-G

The two "Di" ingredients are plasticizer/burn rate modifiers....

 

goes for about $35 per lb .....

 

or get some NC flake from firefox enterprises.... it comes in water.....you take it out of the water, let the water evaporate( ie let it air dry) then add NC flake + acetone.....

 

Viht is good powder. I have "some". I doubt if anyone can buy it or any other powder right now. Powder and primers are unobtanium right now.

[MadMat]

MikeL. I checked with two shooter shops in my area and both had green dot in stock and their price was right on par with what I had posted earlier. Seems like there's no shortages around here anyway.