Make a new brine or not?

[fr3dopyrox]

Hello, my first run working since 2 hours and

I must stop my run of chlorate cell bécause my power pc supply was too hot! My question is : is this brine is loose or i can store him for future batch ? Thanks ...

Ps: my brine is potassium chloride...

Edited September 24, 2020 by fr3dopyrox

[Arthur]

If it's clear looking then it's reusable. If it has dark specks (from an electrode surface) it's probably scrap. If there are crystals (of chlorate) on the bottom, sieve them out, weigh them and replenish for them.

 

Not knowing what the cell and current were just look at adding a longer length of wire from the PSU to the cell. This will reduce the current a bit, maybe enough to achieve productivity without overheating. Try doubling the wire length, or make it longer then trim it back to a good current for both the cell and the psu. You may be looking for a resistance in the order of 0.1 to 0.05 ohms, it's hard to calculate without lots of detail.

[Mumbles]

Personally, I would save the brine, just don't leave your electrodes in it. When stored on it's own, the brine should be alright. It may smell like bleach a bit.

[fr3dopyrox]

If it's clear looking then it's reusable. If it has dark specks (from an electrode surface) it's probably scrap. If there are crystals (of chlorate) on the bottom, sieve them out, weigh them and replenish for them.

 

Not knowing what the cell and current were just look at adding a longer length of wire from the PSU to the cell. This will reduce the current a bit, maybe enough to achieve productivity without overheating. Try doubling the wire length, or make it longer then trim it back to a good current for both the cell and the psu. You may be looking for a resistance in the order of 0.1 to 0.05 ohms, it's hard to calculate without lots of detail.

Hello i have a 1,7 liter acrilyc jar with power pc supply 5v 14ampers, it is from laptop computer with Tiny fan inside, i have 2 titanium Mesh electrodes : length 15 centimèters,thé Width Is 2 centimeters electode, and one mmo électrode mesh again Length 15 centimeters And the width is 2 centimeters.I have a new power supply i want use : a mean well 5volts 26 ampers : it is not too much for my mmo electrode ? Thanks by advance...

Edited September 24, 2020 by fr3dopyrox

[WSM]

Hello i have a 1,7 liter acrilyc jar with power pc supply 5v 14ampers, it is from laptop computer with Tiny fan inside, i have 2 titanium Mesh electrodes : length 15 centimèters,thé Width Is 2 centimeters electode, and one mmo électrode mesh again Length 15 centimeters And the width is 2 centimeters.I have a new power supply i want use : a mean well 5volts 26 ampers : it is not too much for my mmo electrode ? Thanks by advance...

From the photos, I can suggest using nuts and bolts plus flat washers to connect power leads to the electrodes, rather than a clamping system. The energy transfer will be more efficient with fewer electrical losses.

 

Another thought, how many connections are on the power supply for each output? I ask because I have similar power supplies with two or three output terminals for each side (negative and positive). Using multiple leads can increase the total ampacity fed to the electrodes.

 

Keep in mind, you can't "force feed" more current than the cell is capable of using. If you feed 100 amperes to a cell circuit demanding 25 Amps, it'll use the 25 amperes and the rest is unused (but available). It's possible your power supply is overheating due to leads that are too small and inefficient energy transfer through the clamps.

 

I hope my answers are clear and helpful. If something is unclear, please ask for clarification. Thanks.

 

WSM

Edited September 25, 2020 by WSM

[fr3dopyrox]

From the photos, I can suggest using nuts and bolts plus flat washers to connect power leads to the electrodes, rather than a clamping system. The energy transfer will be more efficient with fewer electrical losses.

 

Another thought, how many connections are on the power supply for each output? I ask because I have similar power supplies with two or three output terminals for each side (negative and positive). Using multiple leads can increase the total ampacity fed to the electrodes.

 

Keep in mind, you can't "force feed" more current than the cell is capable of using. If you feed 100 amperes to a cell circuit demanding 25 Amps, it'll use the 25 amperes and the rest is unused (but available). It's possible your power supply is overheating due to leads that are too small and inefficient energy transfer through the clamps.

 

I hope my answers are clear and helpful. If something is unclear, please ask for clarification. Thanks.

 

WSM

Hello ,

Now i have my new power supply 5v 26ampers, yes i have 2 output terminals for the - and 2 for the +, so i can use all the outputs for connect my électrodes ? So i can use this 26 ampers for my 3,7 liters jar : like you can see in my jar i have 3 électrode mesh ,i dont want burning my mmo mesh anode : for one plane i have 34cm2 area, all my 3 electrodes have same 34cm2 area for one plane , so my question is : can i use this 26ampers supply With this mmo anode?? Thank you very much for your help..,

Edited September 25, 2020 by fr3dopyrox

[WSM]

Hello ,

Now i have my new power supply 5v 26ampers, yes i have 2 output terminals for the - and 2 for the +, so i can use all the outputs for connect my électrodes ? So i can use this 26 ampers for my 3,7 liters jar : like you can see in my jar i have 3 électrode mesh ,i dont want burning my mmo mesh anode : for one plane i have 34cm2 area, all my 3 electrodes have same 34cm2 area for one plane , so my question is : can i use this 26ampers supply With this mmo anode?? Thank you very much for your help..,

 

 

If your anode (the MMO) is 34cm² on one side, the current demand should be 10.2 A; but since you are surrounding the anode with cathodes, double that number to 20.4 Amps, if I'm correct.

 

The MMO is very chemically and electrically tough (if it is high quality material, where's it from?). I wouldn't worry about it coming apart with normal use. A few things can totally destroy MMO, One of them is any amount of fluorides (don't use ordinary tap water which might be treated with fluorides [fluoridated] by the government; use distilled or deionized water to avoid fluorides). Filtered rainwater might be okay also. Some water or salt contaminants can also coat the MMO, reducing the available working surface area.

 

If you can't use heavier wire diameters to feed your cell, you can certainly use multiple leads to carry higher currents. Electrical engineers do this all the time in designing circuits large and small, to economize either space or materials costs. It sounds like your power supply is designed to either feed two circuits or higher current to one circuit. Try it out and see if it works for you...

 

The laptop power supply you were originally using was probably overloaded (too small for the application) and was struggling to feed your cell.

 

If you get a chance, read through the blogs about chlorate and perchlorate cells. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

WSM

[WSM]

One extra thought: It is prudent to load your power supply to only 80% of its capacity. If your supply is rated for 30 Amperes, design your cell to demand no more than 24 Amps. That way if the cell does demand more current, the demand will usually stay within the working range of the supply.

 

Some high end power supplies are heavy duty enough to deliver full current capacity continuously, but most economical supplies will have serious heating issues unless extreme cooling measures are applied. It's better to get a power supply with higher current capacity than the anticipated load will require.

 

WSM

Edited September 29, 2020 by WSM

[WSM]

Personally, I would save the brine, just don't leave your electrodes in it. When stored on it's own, the brine should be alright. It may smell like bleach a bit.

 

 

This is very important.

 

The electrodes are not negatively affected in an operating cell, but when the power is off (for any reason) for very long, the electrolyte will start to eat at the electrodes.

 

If you lose power, remove the electrodes from the cell, rinse them in water (and dry them if the outage is for very long) till you can restore power to the cell. This has been an issue for amateurs living in areas with an unreliable electrical power source.

 

WSM

Edited September 26, 2020 by WSM

[fr3dopyrox]

 

 

If your anode (the MMO) is 34cm² on one side, the current demand should be 10.2 A; but since you are surrounding the anode with cathodes, double that number to 20.4 Amps, if I'm correct.

 

The MMO is very chemically and electrically tough (if it is high quality material, where's it from?). I wouldn't worry about it coming apart with normal use. A few things can totally destroy MMO, One of them is any amount of fluorides (don't use ordinary tap water which might be treated with fluorides [fluoridated] by the government; use distilled or deionized water to avoid fluorides). Filtered rainwater might be okay also. Some water or salt contaminants can also coat the MMO, reducing the available working surface area.

 

If you can't use heavier wire diameters to feed your cell, you can certainly use multiple leads to carry higher currents. Electrical engineers do this all the time in designing circuits large and small, to economize either space or materials costs. It sounds like your power supply is designed to either feed two circuits or higher current to one circuit. Try it out and see if it works for you...

 

The laptop power supply you were originally using was probably overloaded (too small for the application) and was struggling to feed your cell.

 

If you get a chance, read through the blogs about chlorate and perchlorate cells. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

WSM

I buyed my électrodes from a guy who send kit chlorate cell , hes from us , he make video on YouTube : his YouTube pseudo is kno3 unv,

Thanks for your precious help guys...

[WSM]

I buyed my électrodes from a guy who send kit chlorate cell , hes from us , he make video on YouTube : his YouTube pseudo is kno3 unv,

Thanks for your precious help guys...

 

His setup looks familiar. I believe I saw a similar setup displayed at the PGI convention several years ago, in a corner of the manufacturing area. His video shows that he clamps the leads with screws, nuts and washers, rather than with clips. That will allow for a more efficient transfer of electrical energy.

 

If your leads are 1/8" (~3 mm) in diameter, they will work but carry a limited amount of current, which may cause them to heat up when the cell runs. As long as they don't get hot enough to damage the lid of the cell (too hot), it should be okay. I usually use larger leads to help keep things running at about 50^oC or less.

 

His video showed the vinyl vent tube coiled and laying down. My preference is to have the vent vertical so there is no obstruction to the hydrogen gas escaping to atmosphere. If the tube remains coiled, moisture can collect in the bottom of a coil loop and obstruct the flow of gas, increasing the pressure above one atmosphere in the cell which can build salt creep at the top of the cell (possibly helping to corrode your electrical connections). If you can tell, I don't like salt creep!

 

The vent doesn't need to be soft tubing. I've used hard PVC pipe as a vent as well as soft tubing. Both types work but it is best to keep it running more or less straight up, with no obstructions, so the hydrogen bubbling off the cathodes can escape safely to the atmosphere, nowhere near an ignition source.

 

 

Let us know how your setup is working with the new power supply.

 

WSM

[WSM]

In answer to the title of this thread, whether to make new brine or not depends on the concentration of chlorides in your cell.

 

One way I can tell is by tracking the current draw of the cell. If you add an ammeter to the power supply output circuit, you can monitor the progress of the cell. If my cell is using 20 Amps at the start of the run, I usually stop the run when the current draw drops to roughly half of the starting Amperes. Running beyond that point yields less product and with increasing stresses on the system. I believe this is due to the reduction in chlorides as chlorate is produced.

 

The best way to run a chlorate cell is to harvest the potassium chlorate crystals and then recharge the depleted electrolyte with fresh potassium chloride. Next, run the cell again. The first run will spend a lot of energy producing precursor ions (and make your electrolyte smell like bleach) and yield less chlorate than subsequent runs will. This is because the recharged electrolyte already has the precursors in solution, so more chlorate will be produced and in less time than the first run will.

 

So the answer is, "Only if you have to". If your electrolyte is okay (not contaminated), go ahead and reuse it by dissolving more chloride in it (which is easier while it is still hot or warm) and run it again. If your electrolyte IS contaminated, then yes, replace it with new electrolyte and start the whole thing over.

 

Add an ammeter to track the current used by your cell so you can have an idea when to stop, harvest your chlorate, recharge the cell and start again.

 

Good luck.

 

WSM

Edited September 29, 2020 by WSM

[fr3dopyrox]

His setup looks familiar. I believe I saw a similar setup displayed at the PGI convention several years ago, in a corner of the manufacturing area. His video shows that he clamps the leads with screws, nuts and washers, rather than with clips. That will allow for a more efficient transfer of electrical energy.

 

If your leads are 1/8" (~3 mm) in diameter, they will work but carry a limited amount of current, which may cause them to heat up when the cell runs. As long as they don't get hot enough to damage the lid of the cell (too hot), it should be okay. I usually use larger leads to help keep things running at about 50^oC or less.

 

His video showed the vinyl vent tube coiled and laying down. My preference is to have the vent vertical so there is no obstruction to the hydrogen gas escaping to atmosphere. If the tube remains coiled, moisture can collect in the bottom of a coil loop and obstruct the flow of gas, increasing the pressure above one atmosphere in the cell which can build salt creep at the top of the cell (possibly helping to corrode your electrical connections). If you can tell, I don't like salt creep!

 

The vent doesn't need to be soft tubing. I've used hard PVC pipe as a vent as well as soft tubing. Both types work but it is best to keep it running more or less straight up, with no obstructions, so the hydrogen bubbling off the cathodes can escape safely to the atmosphere, nowhere near an ignition source.

 

 

Let us know how your setup is working with the new power supply.

 

WSM

Hello, yes my new supply is ok , with little fan :3 days of run and she is cold, I can see crystals at the bottom of jar, when the ampers dropped I can stop the electrolyse ? I will post picture of my first yield 👍, thank you guys...

[fr3dopyrox]

Hello , I just collected my crystal, without boiling the brine , I tested with aluminum dark pyro, it dont burning, maybe I can make my dried crystals in the brine , boiling it and put the jar in the fridge, and recollect my crystals ? Thanks and goodbye...

Edited September 30, 2020 by fr3dopyrox

[fr3dopyrox]

Hello, thanks for your help , I have find the problem : it was a bad electric contact with électrodes and copper plate , I just collected my first batch of potassium chlorate and recrystalised , I collected 100 grams of potassium chlorate, who tested sodium chlorate like herbs killer?

Edited October 10, 2020 by fr3dopyrox