Methyl Ethyl Ketone Instead Ethyl Alcohol/Acetone 50:50

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hello.

I wish to try to replace the mix of 50/50 Ethylic Alcohol/Acetone with MEK.

MEK is less volatile of acetone, so I will have more time to roll my stars,

and it is less toxic.

Besides this, commercial alcohol have a little percentage of water (5% or more) , and since I will roll

stars with phenolic resin as binder and no dextrin, I prefer to have stars without any trace of water inside.

Finally, acetone ruin often my sprayers because melt some kind of plastics.

So, it is a good idea to use only MEK with phenolic resin?

 

[kleberrios]

Hello.

I wish to try to replace the mix of 50/50 Ethylic Alcohol/Acetone with MEK.

MEK is less volatile of acetone, so I will have more time to roll my stars,

and it is less toxic.

Besides this, commercial alcohol have a little percentage of water (5% or more) , and since I will roll

stars with phenolic resin as binder and no dextrin, I prefer to have stars without any trace of water inside.

Finally, acetone ruin often my sprayers because melt some kind of plastics.

So, it is a good idea to use only MEK with phenolic resin?

 

 

 

Excelent idea. MEK dissolv nc,pvc,parlon,fenolic resin etc. Acetone don't dissolv pvc and parlon.

[SharkWhisperer]

 

 

Excelent idea. MEK dissolv nc,pvc,parlon,fenolic resin etc. Acetone don't dissolv pvc and parlon.

Incorrect. Parlon is highly soluble in acetone.

[kleberrios]

Incorrect. Parlon is highly soluble in acetone.

 

Excelent, I don't know about this. And Saran?

[SharkWhisperer]

 

Excelent, I don't know about this. And Saran?

Not sure because I don't use too much PVC/Saran. But the web is alive with appropriate information on solubility of common chems. Above it was stated that PVC was soluble in MEK. Well, it seems that it is soluble in acetone, too, but probably best to try to dissolve a little yourself:

 

"Acetone and Methyl Ethyl Ketone [MEK aka 2-Butanone] will dissolve both ABS and PVC and chemically rebuild the joint in a less ordered manner as the solvents dries." from http://depts.washington.edu/open3dp/2015/01/polymer-guide-if-you-seek-solvation/ . Then.... "Complete dissolution of PVC was not achieved at any temperature with MEK". From a peer-reviewed: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287391560_Solubility_parameters_for_determining_optimal_solvents_for_separating_PVC_from_PVC-coated_PET_fibers

 

So, appears acetone will probably dissolve PVC, too, but you'd be wise to take 5 minutes and check for yourself with your chems--not all PVCs are identical.

Edited August 30, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[kleberrios]

Not sure because I don't use too much PVC/Saran. But the web is alive with appropriate information on solubility of common chems. Above it was stated that PVC was soluble in MEK. Well, it seems that it is soluble in acetone, too, but probably best to try to dissolve a little yourself:

 

"Acetone and Methyl Ethyl Ketone [MEK aka 2-Butanone] will dissolve both ABS and PVC and chemically rebuild the joint in a less ordered manner as the solvents dries." from http://depts.washington.edu/open3dp/2015/01/polymer-guide-if-you-seek-solvation/ . Then.... "Complete dissolution of PVC was not achieved at any temperature with MEK". From a peer-reviewed: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287391560_Solubility_parameters_for_determining_optimal_solvents_for_separating_PVC_from_PVC-coated_PET_fibers

 

So, appears acetone will probably dissolve PVC, too, but you'd be wise to take 5 minutes and check for yourself with your chems--not all PVCs are identical.

Acetone don't dissov pvc. MEK dissov pvc.

The glue for pvc tubes is nothing more than the PVC DISSOLVED itself. I discovered this myself.

Edited August 30, 2020 by kleberrios

[justvisiting]

From Pyrotechnica #7, 'Metal Fuel Colored Flames With Parlon';

 

"Parlon is partially soluble in acetone."

 

Another excerpt;

 

"To illustrate the binding abilities of Parlon solution, the following test was made: 5 grams of parlon were dissolved in a solvent blend consisting of 70 grams of acetone and 30 grams of MEK. Two grams of the solution proved adequate to bind 60 grams of 60 mesh atomized metal into pumped pellets which dried very hard........ The Parlon content in the dried pellets was less than one tenth of one percent."

 

The very extensive article was written by Troy Fish.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

So, for phenolic resin as binder with parlon as clorine donor, what solvent do You suggest?

Only ethanol, ethanol plus acetone, MEK, or MEK plus acetone?

I need the maximus bond strenght and a decent fast drying time ...

[justvisiting]

I don't know who MinamotoKobayashi is asking, but if it's me, I don't know. I have very little experience rolling stars. My only phenolic-bound stars, moistened with alcohol, stayed soft for several weeks, even after applying heat a few times. I took some phenolic resin and dissolved it in alcohol, and let it evaporate on parchment paper. It left a soft disk of phenolic resin that is still soft after several months- maybe a year. This very limited experience has scared me away from using phenolic resin to bind rolled stars.

 

I included the Parlon reference because I thought it might be useful. From what little I know on the subject, it seems that using the weak parlon solution mentioned by Fish, excellent binding might be had.

 

I've never heard of Parlon being soluble in acetone. I've only known of it to be softened by acetone.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Justvisiting, I had the same problem with phenolic resin and alcohol: the stars stayed soft for more than a week! And they was ruined by the direct sun heat.

Using the original Jopete's formula with both dextrin and red gum (so alcohol and water) the stars does not suffer the same issue, induriscono velocemente.

But I wish to eliminate the water (and the dextrin) and to use phenolic resin instead red gum because wiht phenolic the flame envelope is stronger,

brighter, and burn fierce.

I will try to roll the next batch using 50/50 alcohol/acetone.

P.S.: pyrodata say that Parlon is soluble in acetone:

https://pyrodata.com/chemicals/Parlon

Edited August 31, 2020 by MinamotoKobayashi

[Mumbles]

As a personal preference I always avoid binding with parlon. In my experience, it tends to leave an incandescent tail that I believe to be larger parlon pieces. Some brands of parlon has more coarse material than others. They also leave this same tail, no matter what the binder and solvent are. Screening them out seems to fix this issue. Using acetone to bind with parlon, even with pre-screened material, seems to produce this effect again. It's just personal preference, and I will admit my experience is pretty limited due to my initial results and subsequent bias.

 

The softening/swelling vs. dissolving discussion goes way deeper than I think most would care to hear about. Using PVC as an example. Acetone will soften and/or swell it. Tetrahydrofuran (THF) though will dissolve it. This is why acetone is used in PVC primer, and THF is used in PVC glue. I would think MEK is more like acetone, but I don't know for sure, and can't speak toward it's binding ability. Some links above seem to indicate that it is a better solvent for some plastics though. MEK and acetone have comparable toxicities from what I saw with a limited search. I dislike the smell of both, so I avoid both if possible, but I find MEK far more disagreeable so I completely avoid it.

[justvisiting]

Mumbles, could it be that we are talking about parlon in different ways? I understand the incandescent particles, I've seen them too. But, what if a composition had parlon in the formula as the chlorine donor, but was also rolled using the parlon in solution as the binder? The additional parlon would be negligible formula-wise. I think this would be a whole different take on using parlon as a binder. Just thinking out loud, all criticism welcome

[kaotch]

Referring to the OP's original question and thanks to justvisiting reminding the great work and articles from Troy Fish.Although I never had access to the full article in

Pyrotechnica#7 but bits and pieces only. Therefore justvisiting would it be possible to PM a scan of that article?

 

As far as I have found out parlon can be activated by using either acetone, lacquer thinner , toluene or a combination of acetone and MEK. The trick is to add a pinch of

red gum to the solvent in order to keep to Parlon from being STICKY and STRINGY!!! The more you break down the parlon in the mix the slower it will burn become very hard and durable, all most waterproof and burn very clean with a big flame. This process keeps from having the issue of driven in solvent when cutting or pumping

when you stay under 3/8" size above they almost never dry(solvent driven in).They are quite difficult to ignite and proper care should be taken what kind of prime to use.