Flash Powder Safety Questions

[Hext]

Hi,

First time poster here and I would like to discuss flash powder safety. I appreciate that I will probably get some negative comments but I have no intentions of doing anything 'stupid' and would just like some guidance on doing it (more) safely.

My main intention is essentially curiosity (chemistry is fun!) and making small firecrackers. I am in my 40's and have a fairly good idea of what is safe and what isn't. I am qualified to work at height (IRATA) and I do a lot of SRT as well so I know how to follow procedure correctly and safely.

I know how to make flash and BP from watching various youtube vids and internet research (Yes I know, but it is the main reason for this post as blindly trusting a random strangers recipe is not the brightest thing to do) and would just like to know if there is anything that I could do better with my method.

I hope this is OK, I have read quite a bit on this forum and apparently sensible discussion of small flash projects is allowed but I appreciate the nature of the discussion so no probs if its not. I believe my procedure is basically sound but I am always happy to hear second or third opinions.

---

I mill my own Aluminium powder from foil. uPVC mill and glass media. 5% charcoal by weight is added and usually milled for about 7 to 10 days, the mill is burped every 12 hours. I have mainly followed trollfacethemans flash video as elementalmakers one is a bit lacking in safety procedures.

I mill my KNO3 and Sulfur in a separate mill.

I have tried various recipes. 45/35/20 KNO3/Al/S - 55/45 KNO3/Al - 53/33/14 KNO3/Al/S

I have no interest in using Perc, Chlorate, Permanganate or Magnesium.

I then diaper the two together for about 10 mins using paper. Also put it through a fairly fine sieve during the diapering to aid mixing but large enough mesh to just fall through with minimal encouragement. I use a mask whenever I am mixing.

All materials used to grind/mix etc are either glass, plastic or wood. No metal of any kind is used throughout the process.

This produces a reasonable amount of light when set off in 1-2g batches but is nowhere near as fast or bright as anything I've seen on youtube.

---

I assume my Al is not fine enough yet (it packs but does not clump) and I only found out a few days ago that you are supposed to bake the KNO3 in the oven to remove all the water from it first so that may make a difference.

I have not tried a contained test yet as I am not confident in setting one off safely so do not know how much boom it produces. Setting off anything 'large' (>3g) and producing a report is completely out of the question anyway as it would bring people from miles around.

If anyone has any tips for better safety or efficiency I am all ears!

Thanks

[Bourbon]

It is to my understanding glass is problematic do to it being hard to source for purity. Minute chips could be disastrous even with slow comps.

 

The slow flash you're working with will need descent confinement to show positive results. You may be correct in your AL not being fine enough for a little more speed.

 

I have never milled AL before and don't think I ever will. For the price it's hard to beat commercial and much less problematic. Your milling procedure "sounds" right from what I have read in various places (except glass).

 

If your only looking for itty bitty things, good hot BP will do everything your slower flash will do. You can make that bright too with a pinch of your AL.

[Hext]

I will look into making small paper packets and see how that goes. I know I can fairly safely mill the Al for a few more days although if a bit of containment does the job I think I'll leave it as it is.

 

Buying AL powder is not cheap where I am, best I can easily get hold of is 400 mesh. As I have said its predominantly a science project so buying an off the shelf ingredient is kinda cheating in my eyes.

 

I'll try adding a tiny bit of AL to my BP and see how that does, cheers for the tip.

 

Thanks for the advice and confirmation that what im doing is essentially correct!

[simplydoingstuff]

This is great, just what I was looking for as I also want to get into pretty much the same thing your doing and my knowledge is very limited.

 

Im currently looking into the tumblers/mills and the media to use for aluminum powder. I will primarily be doing aluminum powder and would like to know what the best ball mill media is, if thatss lead, glass or something else. Any pointers on the best media, for time and fineness?

 

I am also looking into which budget tumbler to purchase, ive seen the lortone tumbler, chicago electric, leegol and others. Any insight on which is the recommended? Price range looking to be around the $80 or less mark.

Thank you!

Edited September 4, 2020 by simplydoingstuff

[Bourbon]

Glass is not your friend here. Ytube videos and glass seem to be hand in hand. Burping is a necessity, often, static spray every belch. Treat AL as if it's going to burn you down.

[Piccaso]

This is great, just what I was looking for as I also want to get into pretty much the same thing your doing and my knowledge is very limited.

 

Im currently looking into the tumblers/mills and the media to use for aluminum powder. I will primarily be doing aluminum powder and would like to know what the best ball mill media is, if thatss lead, glass or something else. Any pointers on the best media, for time and fineness?

 

I am also looking into which budget tumbler to purchase, ive seen the lortone tumbler, chicago electric, leegol and others. Any insight on which is the recommended? Price range looking to be around the $80 or less mark.

Thank you!

Unless you are willing to spend more money on a mill you will have to build one as those smaller tumblers just are not very good at all. The media will also cost as much as the tumbler for decent stuff. This is not a cheap hobby. I started with a small tumbler and thought I knew what good was till I bought a Rebel 17 and modified it to run at the correct speed and bought good media. Their is no comparision between the two. Save you r money and buy a good one or build a good one.

[Arthur]

There (or were) pictures on this forum of half a hand including stitches. This incident was the result of milling with glass marbles as media.

 

Flash is never safe, just sometimes it's a necessity. Be very careful, work as small as possible and do NOT try milling flash or ingredients using materials selected only for cheapness.

 

I'm guessing that reconstructive surgery on a hand is NOT cheap.

[MadMat]

I can attest to the dangers of flash. I started doing pyro at a very early age (I was always a chemistry nerd) and on my 12th birthday I made my first flash and proceeded to blow up my left hand with it. I got extremely lucky and only got mostly second degree burns, with a small spot of third degree. Since I had approximately 35 grams of flash I am very lucky I didn't lose some fingers. IT was many, many years before I did any pyro work again. I now know all the stupid things I did back then and shudder sometimes at the chances I took

[kaotch]

I am aware of an incident ,several years ago ,where a member was killed by producing flash powder he was using a formula containg KCLO3 !!!

[SharkWhisperer]

I am aware of an incident ,several years ago ,where a member was killed by producing flash powder he was using a formula containg KCLO3 !!!

With the wide availability of perc, at least in the US, there is just no reason to make a chlorate-based FP. Now for Euro and Aussie folks making their own oxidizer by electrolysis...

 

Perc Flash is potentially dangerous but largely predictable. A lot less predictability when making with chlorate, and thus, more dangerous. Add in a little sulfur if you really don't like your digits and skin--NO, please do not do that. Bad pyro joke.

 

Personally, I only did this once to test hammer-ignition (or not) of various flash comps. A small pile of chlorate flash (usual 70/30 ratio--I didn't, but should have, adjusted oxidizer to accommodate differing oxygen content in perc vs chlorate) would deflagrate about half the time with a (very loosely defined and non-scientific) brisk 16-oz standard hammer hit. I think I got the perc comp to blow 1/10 times. Shimuzu has more detailed comparisons of flash sensitivity in one of his books that's easy to locate (if Pyrobin is again active). That was the first and probably the last time I made chlorate flash. Chlorate does have its uses still for some very nice rich star comps (can't prime with BP or anything containing sulfur/antimony trisulfide/ammonium chems for obvious reasons) and smoke generation, and I have some sitting around someplace getting old. Planned to make some smoke, but something more interesting always came up. Perc's everywhere and it works well for tons of things, so just no need for chlorate comps...for me, that is.

Edited September 22, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[BetICouldMake1]

I'll admit to being tempted to make colored flash using chlorate. But haven't gotten there yet. The Maltese are crazy.

[Carbon796]

Not all Maltese colored flash are chlorate based. Some clubs are actually moving away from using chlorate based comps, due to changing regulations.

[kingkama]

I'll admit to being tempted to make colored flash using chlorate. But haven't gotten there yet. The Maltese are crazy.

For colored flesh is better use nitrate and a coated magnesium, some in 60/40 range, with or without pvc but pvc claim for a bit of chlorate /perchlorate.

[Bourbon]

I have never used magnesium before, other than shavings in my NC for igniters. Is there a positive way of indicating the magnesium you purchase is coated? Like, does it visually stand out?

Edited September 23, 2020 by Bourbon

[MadMat]

I have never used magnesium before, other than shavings in my NC for igniters. Is there a positive way of indicating the magnesium you purchase is coated? Like, does it visually stand out?

If it is coated with linseed oil, the presence of the coating is pretty obvious. A dichromate coating, however, would be difficult. A chemical analysis for the presence of chromates would be one way.

[Mumbles]

Dichromate treated Mg has sort of a green-ish hue to it's surface. That said, you can't really buy ready treated Mg for the most part. You have to do it yourself, which is a pretty good way of knowing it's coated.

[kingkama]

With the barium/strontium nitrate the reaction is minimal, but is present, so linseed oil or silicon rubber/wax dissolved in alcool or mek can be a good way.

[Bourbon]

Thanks guys. Good to know..

[SharkWhisperer]

I don't have it on the laptop at hand, but I uploaded an easy-to-find tutorial on coating Mg with both linseed oil (boiled!) or dichromate salts sometime in the last year. Neither process is difficult. I coat (rarely--I don't use a lot of pure Mg) with dichromate, which is an easy process and works well. Never tried linseed oil--something about it just sounds greasy. Dichromates are toxic, though I recall burning it by the pound in poorly-ventilated classroom volcano demonstrations, so keep that in mind. The process is not difficult. As Mumbles mentioned, it's simples to discern coated vs non-dichromate coated Mg by color alone. I always get an odd color but wouldn't describe it as really "green", more like Mg meets puke. Wait! Maybe kinda close to green, but not garden-green, tsk tsk. I use sodium dichromate. There's also potassium and ammonium salts widespread. They all are functional. They all are toxic (investigate scientific details to determine your scare level), probably moreso than the barium nitrate many shun without good reason.

 

Anyways, if you want the instructional on coating Mg (and cannot locate it here with the search function, you lazy arse), then pm me and I'll send it to ya.

 

Nothing scary. Just use the same level of respect that you do for all other comps/chems and you'll be fine.

[Carbon796]

You need to pick the type of protection/coating based on the type of comp your using the magnesium in.

[SharkWhisperer]

Thanks, Carbon.

 

Maybe you can be a little more detailed on how one method of Mg-coating is more suitable for a given comp?

 

I don't use Mg often, but dichromate coverage has always been sufficient.

 

Tx

[Carbon796]

A dichromate coating protects magnesium from being attacked by AP.

 

But, will not protect the magnesium in a strontium/barium nitrate comp when wet. Strontium/barium chromate will be formed. Stripping the magnesium of its protection.

[royster]

Hi,

 

First time poster here and I would like to discuss flash powder safety. I appreciate that I will probably get some negative comments but I have no intentions of doing anything 'stupid' and would just like some guidance on doing it (more) safely.

 

My main intention is essentially curiosity (chemistry is fun!) and making small firecrackers. I am in my 40's and have a fairly good idea of what is safe and what isn't. I am qualified to work at height (IRATA) and I do a lot of SRT as well so I know how to follow procedure correctly and safely.

 

I know how to make flash and BP from watching various youtube vids and internet research (Yes I know, but it is the main reason for this post as blindly trusting a random strangers recipe is not the brightest thing to do) and would just like to know if there is anything that I could do better with my method.

 

I hope this is OK, I have read quite a bit on this forum and apparently sensible discussion of small flash projects is allowed but I appreciate the nature of the discussion so no probs if its not. I believe my procedure is basically sound but I am always happy to hear second or third opinions.

 

---

 

I mill my own Aluminium powder from foil. uPVC mill and glass media. 5% charcoal by weight is added and usually milled for about 7 to 10 days, the mill is burped every 12 hours. I have mainly followed trollfacethemans flash video as elementalmakers one is a bit lacking in safety procedures.

 

I mill my KNO3 and Sulfur in a separate mill.

 

I have tried various recipes. 45/35/20 KNO3/Al/S - 55/45 KNO3/Al - 53/33/14 KNO3/Al/S

 

I have no interest in using Perc, Chlorate, Permanganate or Magnesium.

 

I then diaper the two together for about 10 mins using paper. Also put it through a fairly fine sieve during the diapering to aid mixing but large enough mesh to just fall through with minimal encouragement. I use a mask whenever I am mixing.

 

All materials used to grind/mix etc are either glass, plastic or wood. No metal of any kind is used throughout the process.

 

This produces a reasonable amount of light when set off in 1-2g batches but is nowhere near as fast or bright as anything I've seen on youtube.

 

---

 

I assume my Al is not fine enough yet (it packs but does not clump) and I only found out a few days ago that you are supposed to bake the KNO3 in the oven to remove all the water from it first so that may make a difference.

 

I have not tried a contained test yet as I am not confident in setting one off safely so do not know how much boom it produces. Setting off anything 'large' (>3g) and producing a report is completely out of the question anyway as it would bring people from miles around.

 

If anyone has any tips for better safety or efficiency I am all ears!

 

Thanks

 

I dont understand the chemistry behind it but if you lightly torch the foil before milling it it will be significantly more reactive then if you didn't.

 

I would suggest adding boric acid as a just in case safety measure.

Edited September 26, 2020 by royster

[walran]

Very informative. I have a long ways to go.

[MikeL]

Very informative. I have a long ways to go.

 

Me too...

 

Note to self- YouTube probably isn't the best place to learn pyro.

 

2nd note- This is not going to be a fast learning process. I'm good with that...