Illusion of a miracle - burning river

[Labradore]

Hello!

Hope I chose the right department. I am writing a book and in it's final I wanted to create an illusion of the burning Vistula river (Warsaw, Poland). One of the characters is an illusionist and wants to do an act in the popular spot where all the people sit on the banks and have fun, it's right after some bridge.

The idea is to create a miracle (a reference to the biblical burning bush that Moses saw). At night in the summer, when people sit on both sides of the Vistula River, I would like to have an effect of a mysterious fire - preferably a wall of fire that suddenly appears above the water and then disappears. Maybe someone already comes up with some clues?

I've already done some research, of course. In the first version, the characters were supposed to pour extraction gasoline into the river and set it on fire, but it's probably not the best idea, right? Someone figured it out for me that it would take 200 liters for a river to catch fire, but this must be nonsense. And there wouldn't be that wall of fire effect, it would just be a fire a little above the water, right?

An university professor helped me with the second concept. I corresponded with him for a while, but then the contact broke off. Nevertheless, he offered me nitrocellulose (NC) sheets idea - throw them into the water and set them on fire. This is a nice lead. I know NC burns super fast and even under water. However, I do not know how much of it I'd need my characters to have and how high the fire would burn.

Currently, I think that I could use tiny, around 8 m wide and 50 m long, promontory in the middle of the Vistula, a shallow, and lay thick layers of NC there. How high do you think the NC could catch fire and how much of it I'd need?

I am open to any suggestions. The effect must be "wow", so that on the second day in the world of my novel people would see headlines such as "mysterious fire on the Vistula on the night of meteorites. Witnesses talk about the sacred revelation" The plot is sewn with thick threads (I dont now if there is such an expression in English, but there is in Polish ), so even the most crazy ideas will be appreciated. We can also turn a blind eye to some specialized issues

Can you help?

[Arthur]

Compounds that decompose into flame on contact with water? (like tri-ethyl-borane spontaneously ignites on contact with air).

[Labradore]

Compounds that decompose into flame on contact with water? (like tri-ethyl-borane spontaneously ignites on contact with air).

 

I'd rather have something that my characters could unload or pour from the ship they are going to have. Someone told me about hexane what do you think?

 

But currently I am most convinced about nitrocellulose. The whole think doesnt have be realistic just need sound funny and convincing. My idea now is to make big rolls of nitrocellulose and unroll them on the thin piece of land in the middle of the river, the shallow part.

Here the scientists used 100 kg of NC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ZYDd06nKY

It burns nice and high. I could make my characters burn 1000kg

 

I just wonder where would my characters obtain cellulose from? How could the make such a big fat rolls a bit like rolls of grass for the football pitch. Any ideas, thoughts on this crazy vision?

[Crazy Swede]

Nitrocellulose in its original form does not burn when whet unfortunately due to its fibrous character.

 

In its colloidal form (celluloid, single or double base propellant) I'm not sure if it is easy to find qualities that will float effectively on water?

[Labradore]

Nitrocellulose in its original form does not burn when whet unfortunately due to its fibrous character.

 

In its colloidal form (celluloid, single or double base propellant) I'm not sure if it is easy to find qualities that will float effectively on water?

 

Thank you for your answer Crazy Swede. I am thinking now that my characters wont put NC into water. They will use the shallow in the middle of the river. So NC will not soak. I am just wondering how and it what form they might produce 1000kg of NC? And how do you think it would behave?

[Crazy Swede]

Nitrocellulose is produced by treating cellulose in some form (cotton, starch, wood pulp...) with a mixture of nitric acid and sulfuric acid. Really huge amounts of acids would be needed to produce 1000 kg of NC and I cannot see that being done without a factory where the acids can be recovered to some extent. I suggest your characters steal it but usually that is not easily done since a lot of security is connected to the production of powders and explosives.

 

Old and discarded single or double base propellant however that is sent away for destruction might be easier to come by. :-)

[Labradore]

Old and discarded single or double base propellant however that is sent away for destruction might be easier to come by. :-)

 

What exactly do you mean by that? I am sorry my english is not that good in terms of chemistry

 

When you huge amount of acids (nitrocellulose), how huge are we talking about?

[SeaMonkey]

Are you able to buy Smokeless Gunpowder in Poland?

 

Several pounds of smokeless powder, a form of NitroCellulose, should do the trick.

 

You'd want to put the granules of powder into some sort of long tray to keep them dry

before igniting them.

 

Smokeless Powder comes in various grades and prices. Buy the cheapest.

Edited August 13, 2020 by SeaMonkey

[Crazy Swede]

 

What exactly do you mean by that? I am sorry my english is not that good in terms of chemistry

 

When you huge amount of acids (nitrocellulose), how huge are we talking about?

What I mean is that in many countries the military now and then have to change propellant (smokeless powder based on nitrocellulose) in stored artillery ammunition for example. The ammunition is dismantled, the old propellant is replaced and usually just sent away for open burning. To avoid doing this too often large amounts of propellant can often be accumulated in suitable places and usually several tons are spread out in long strings (looking like roads) and then ignited at a safe distance. This produces incredible high flames and a massive emission of heat that continues for some time, depending on the dimensions of the string. Maybe your characters could steal a ton or two at a suitable time and place?

 

According to the book "Chemistry of Powders and Explosives" by Tenney L. Davis you typically use 32 parts of cellulose to 1500 parts of nitrating acids (a mixture of nitric acid, sulfuric acid and some water). Nitrocellulose weighs about 1.9 times more than cellulose but I guess you see the problem when the nitration of 530 kg of cellulose would demand around 2.5 tons of nitrating acid mixture!

[Crazy Swede]

By the way, to make the NC float it could be tumbled with something that repels water, like hydrofobic amorphous silica or even better: lycopodium powder (spores from a some species of a clubmoss).

[Labradore]

Are you able to buy Smokeless Gunpowder in Poland?

 

Several pounds of smokeless powder, a form of NitroCellulose, should do the trick.

 

You'd want to put the granules of powder into some sort of long tray to keep them dry

before igniting them.

 

Smokeless Powder comes in various grades and prices. Buy the cheapest.

 

Yes, I checked we can buy it here, it is a kind of smokless powder on the base of nitrocellulose, right?

 

If I used it I probably should have tens of pounds to have an effect of wall of fire the reaches around 20 m high, I assume.

 

I will consider that, thank you!

[Labradore]

What I mean is that in many countries the military now and then have to change propellant (smokeless powder based on nitrocellulose) in stored artillery ammunition for example. The ammunition is dismantled, the old propellant is replaced and usually just sent away for open burning. To avoid doing this too often large amounts of propellant can often be accumulated in suitable places and usually several tons are spread out in long strings (looking like roads) and then ignited at a safe distance. This produces incredible high flames and a massive emission of heat that continues for some time, depending on the dimensions of the string. Maybe your characters could steal a ton or two at a suitable time and place?

 

According to the book "Chemistry of Powders and Explosives" by Tenney L. Davis you typically use 32 parts of cellulose to 1500 parts of nitrating acids (a mixture of nitric acid, sulfuric acid and some water). Nitrocellulose weighs about 1.9 times more than cellulose but I guess you see the problem when the nitration of 530 kg of cellulose would demand around 2.5 tons of nitrating acid mixture!

Thank you very much for those stats!

 

You are right, that is a lot of acids to come by... I am thinking now, that I could just say that this crazy illusionist had a dozen of guncotton rolls (kind of like grass for football pitch) and he and his fellows unrolled them on the shallow in the middle of the river. What do you think?

 

I dont really have to explain how he got them. He is not the main character, the main character just joins him.

 

But I love the idea of the old propellant too. My character could obtain that and the effect is what i need. In what form such smokeless gunpowder based on nitrocellulose is stored in the millitary? Granules like te regular powder? And those granules in some kind of chests or boxes?

 

I assume this propellant is what SeaMonkey advised me to buy. But I think stealing (or illegally obtaining in other way) it from military would be more fun.

 

Btw. do you know a video or have seen where the military burns the old propellant?

Edited August 13, 2020 by Labradore

[robbo]

A special effects person would use a (flexible/) pipe/tube with multiple orifices either floating on the surface or (better) suspended just beneath the surface with inconspicuous flat black floats holding the structure beneath them. Pressurized propane and butane will flow up and across the water surface since they're heavier than air, butane more so. Natural gas will rise straight up. Use pilot flames in hidden/obscured floating locations along the tube chain (think simple small butane torches at multiple locations to insure ignition), or use remote electric ignition (trickier) to light the gas once the supply valve is opened. This sort of thing is a common installation in many theme parks and uses HVAC gas ignition and controls. The underwater gas manifold tube has to be pressurized with the fuel in order to get even distribution and the pressure required has to be adjusted to the length/output of the device. A long time ago our shop had a version of this as a rental unit.

[Crazy Swede]

...But I love the idea of the old propellant too. My character could obtain that and the effect is what i need. In what form such smokeless gunpowder based on nitrocellulose is stored in the millitary? Granules like te regular powder? Usually small cylindrical grains, sometimes with very small holes through its axis And those granules in some kind of chests or boxes? They usually come in fiber drums

 

I assume this propellant is what SeaMonkey advised me to buy. But I think stealing (or illegally obtaining in other way) it from military would be more fun.

 

Btw. do you know a video or have seen where the military burns the old propellant? I have seen open burning of smaller amounts, say a hundred kilos, but unfortunately I don't have pictures or videos of my own and I could not find what I was looking after a short glance at Youtube. You will however get the idea of how it looks like from the picture on the front page of this report: https://www.enviro.wiki/images/1/10/Ampleman-2011-Characterization_and_fate_of_gun_and_rocket_propellant_residues.pdf

[Crazy Swede]

A special effects person would use a (flexible/) pipe/tube with multiple orifices either floating on the surface or (better) suspended just beneath the surface with inconspicuous flat black floats holding the structure beneath them. Pressurized propane and butane will flow up and across the water surface since they're heavier than air, butane more so. Natural gas will rise straight up. Use pilot flames in hidden/obscured floating locations along the tube chain (think simple small butane torches at multiple locations to insure ignition), or use remote electric ignition (trickier) to light the gas once the supply valve is opened. This sort of thing is a common installation in many theme parks and uses HVAC gas ignition and controls. The underwater gas manifold tube has to be pressurized with the fuel in order to get even distribution and the pressure required has to be adjusted to the length/output of the device. A long time ago our shop had a version of this as a rental unit.

You are right, that is probably the way to go!

 

I have seen effects like that being done very lame in Las Vegas but in the book it does not have to be safe and sane!

[Arthur]

There is a large range of compounds that emit flammable gas on contact with water. Calcium carbide gives off acetylene, sodium gives off hydrogen when wetted with water, other chems exist that similarly react with water to flammable product -some more or less harmful.

[Labradore]

A special effects person would use a (flexible/) pipe/tube with multiple orifices either floating on the surface or (better) suspended just beneath the surface with inconspicuous flat black floats holding the structure beneath them. Pressurized propane and butane will flow up and across the water surface since they're heavier than air, butane more so. Natural gas will rise straight up. Use pilot flames in hidden/obscured floating locations along the tube chain (think simple small butane torches at multiple locations to insure ignition), or use remote electric ignition (trickier) to light the gas once the supply valve is opened. This sort of thing is a common installation in many theme parks and uses HVAC gas ignition and controls. The underwater gas manifold tube has to be pressurized with the fuel in order to get even distribution and the pressure required has to be adjusted to the length/output of the device. A long time ago our shop had a version of this as a rental unit.

 

Thank you, robbo! This is a cool and you have explained so clearly that you could easily put in words of my book My only worry is transportation of this installation. In and out so to speak. My guess is it should be towed by the ship?

 

...But I love the idea of the old propellant too. My character could obtain that and the effect is what i need. In what form such smokeless gunpowder based on nitrocellulose is stored in the millitary? Granules like te regular powder? Usually small cylindrical grains, sometimes with very small holes through its axis And those granules in some kind of chests or boxes? They usually come in fiber drums

 

I assume this propellant is what SeaMonkey advised me to buy. But I think stealing (or illegally obtaining in other way) it from military would be more fun.

 

Btw. do you know a video or have seen where the military burns the old propellant? I have seen open burning of smaller amounts, say a hundred kilos, but unfortunately I don't have pictures or videos of my own and I could not find what I was looking after a short glance at Youtube. You will however get the idea of how it looks like from the picture on the front page of this report: https://www.enviro.wiki/images/1/10/Ampleman-2011-Characterization_and_fate_of_gun_and_rocket_propellant_residues.pdf

 

 

Thank you!

There is a large range of compounds that emit flammable gas on contact with water. Calcium carbide gives off acetylene, sodium gives off hydrogen when wetted with water, other chems exist that similarly react with water to flammable product -some more or less harmful.

 

And you too, Arthur!

[robbo]

The underwater pipe can be flexible tubing. I have even seen clear (PVC? I don't know) tubing used in the building of such a rig, and I think the orifices that were spaced every foot or so were black plastic "emitters" designed for drip irrigation. At least that's what I think they were, in retrospect -- I didn't know what they were when I first saw them until years later I saw emitters on a drip irrigation system. Emitters have precise hole sizes in them. I never saw the system in action, though. I think this was not for permanent installation, hence the plastic stuff.

[Arthur]

Calcium carbide was once used for miner's lamps, drip water on the lumps to make acetylene, burn acetylene to make light. Was available in big tins of 25 kilos or so.once. May be a literary reason to find/have/come by some.