KCLO3 smoke organic dye replacement?

[pycharm]

I have some KCLO3 that I want to make smoke with, but the problem is the dye is much harder to get than I anticipated. I've been unable to find an answer on what I could substitute the dye mix with, so it still has a proper burn. Making it with no mix doesn't seem to work. Was thinking Sucrose but can't find mix. Any help? Edited July 12, 2020 by pycharm

[pycharm]

And by sucrose, I've seen it mentioned as a propellant. Perhaps I could add SB as filler but I'm looking for ultimate smoke output, without needing the dyes. I still need to get the lactose, but I'm seeing some scary stories about that mix and will likely sub that, too.

[Mumbles]

I think you may be out of luck here. Chlorate/lactose/dye smoke mixes function from the chlorate and lactose burning, heating the mix up and subliming the dye. Since the dye is what makes the smoke, leaving it out wont make much smoke at all. You probably want to look more into Potassium nitrate/sucrose type of smokes or if you want something thicker, but much worse to breath in, something like zinc and hexachloroethane smokes.

 

Most of the scary stories and sensitivities comes from the chlorate. If you're worried about safety and sensitivity, that's what you'd want to sub.

[SeaMonkey]

Are you wanting colored smokes or would white smoke do?

 

Tech Ingredients came up with some High Performance Smoke

Devices about three years ago which contained Paraffin Wax.

 

His videos are found on his channel here.

[Arthur]

Sugar smokes are best made to instructions on Skylighter and use potassium nitrate, the smoke will be white/grey.

Coloured smokes are special dyes that sublime in a chlorate/lactose flame ONLY the right dyes will work -others are likely to burn to grey smoke or fail to sublime back to fine particles. Black smoke is made from the partial combustion of polycyclic compounds leaving only aerosol carbon.

 

 

All smokes are extremely sensitive to their containment, too much containment and they go bang, too little and they form a hot flame jet with no smoke. Part of the art is to slow the flame with inerts (Bicarb et al) to the point where there is JUST enough flame.

 

Remember that the dyes in coloured smokes are DYES! They colour EVERYTHING, your hands, arms, face and clothes work space etc permanently. The dyes also float in air and get about everywhere -next room, etc. Remember that chlorate and sugar was the go-to terrorist explosive for years, making it burn just right can need some good formulae or make some loud noises with consequences.

 

 

Principles of Pyrotechnics by Shidlovskiy, A. A. as found on abe books may be your friend, and a few dollars may save you a hand or two. Find abe books in your country, but the books on my home site are in the USA anyway.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Arthur

[pycharm]

Thanks for the responses. I used to play with the kno3/sucrose mix, as well as KCLO4/al mix when I was younger and I enjoyed it. I've always had a certain inclination to the fun aspects of pyro. This time, I wanted to make colored smoke but didn't realize until after ordering the the dye is hard to come by. Maybe I'll see about making some rockets with the K Chlor/sugar. I still have al powder but not trying to make flash, despite the loud noises being fun.

 

Anyways, I didn't know about the forum 15 years ago when I played with it. Happy to have stumbled across it. Been reading almost nonstop for the past two days. I guess I'll put the kclo4 smoke on the back burner until I can find some dye, and I will get the lactose powder for when the time comes.

[pycharm]

 

Sugar smokes are best made to instructions on Skylighter and use potassium nitrate, the smoke will be white/grey.

Coloured smokes are special dyes that sublime in a chlorate/lactose flame ONLY the right dyes will work -others are likely to burn to grey smoke or fail to sublime back to fine particles. Black smoke is made from the partial combustion of polycyclic compounds leaving only aerosol carbon.

 

 

All smokes are extremely sensitive to their containment, too much containment and they go bang, too little and they form a hot flame jet with no smoke. Part of the art is to slow the flame with inerts (Bicarb et al) to the point where there is JUST enough flame.

 

Remember that the dyes in coloured smokes are DYES! They colour EVERYTHING, your hands, arms, face and clothes work space etc permanently. The dyes also float in air and get about everywhere -next room, etc. Remember that chlorate and sugar was the go-to terrorist explosive for years, making it burn just right can need some good formulae or make some loud noises with consequences.

 

 

Principles of Pyrotechnics by Shidlovskiy, A. A. as found on abe books may be your friend, and a few dollars may save you a hand or two. Find abe books in your country, but the books on my home site are in the USA anyway.

I'm going to mix a small amount of K Chl/sucrose and see where to go from there. I'll order kno3 if nothing else.

[pycharm]

I think you may be out of luck here. Chlorate/lactose/dye smoke mixes function from the chlorate and lactose burning, heating the mix up and subliming the dye. Since the dye is what makes the smoke, leaving it out wont make much smoke at all. You probably want to look more into Potassium nitrate/sucrose type of smokes or if you want something thicker, but much worse to breath in, something like zinc and hexachloroethane smokes.

 

Most of the scary stories and sensitivities comes from the chlorate. If you're worried about safety and sensitivity, that's what you'd want to sub.

Was happy to see you reply. I hate to hear that I'm out of luck without the dye, but it is what it is.

[pycharm]

I found a source stating that a mix of Terephthalic Acid (TPA) will be a suitable substitute for the colored dye in the KCLO3 smoke composition, for anybody wondering. I ordered the TPA to test.

[davidh]

I recall that you can use ammonium chloride with KClO3 to make dense white smoke. The literature suggests that this otherwise scary mixture is OK because these two chemicals don't swap ions.

[pycharm]

I recall that you can use ammonium chloride with KClO3 to make dense white smoke. The literature suggests that this otherwise scary mixture is OK because these two chemicals don't swap ions.

I've done quite a bit of reading but haven't found anything on AC with KClo3. I've found some compositions that create a lot of dense white smoke when using AP/sulfamic acid or KClo4/sulfamic acid, but the smoke they put off is hydrogen chloride and when introduced to water creates hydrochloric acid. I'd rather not make that kind of smoke. Lol

[davidh]

"With the exception of the perchlorate, ammonium salts do not find any
place in modern firework manufacture. The possibility of the formation
of highly unstable and explosive ammonium chlorate by an ion exchange
in the presence of water precludes their use. In the past, white
smokes have been made with potassium chlorate and ammonium chloride
and it has to be admitted that the mixture appears to be reasonably
stable, though at first sight theoretically this should not be so." - Lancaster

Edited July 28, 2020 by davidh

[davidh]

Shidlovsky quotes the following:
Weight
(%)
Potassium chlorate 20
Ammonium chloride 50
Naphthalene 20
Charcoal 10
and Dr. Becher (10) the following:
Weight
(%)
Potassium chlorate 40
Ammonium chloride 45
Montan wax 12
Kieselguhr 3

 

Again, from Lancaster

[davidh]

And one more from Lancaster:

In more recent times, many commercial and military smokes have
returned to the potassium chlorate and ammonium chloride mixture
with the addition of lactose and colophony resin. These formulations
naturally vary with the requirements such as the burning time and the
type of container. These smokes however would be based on percentage
of 40-50% of the pine resin and about 10% ammonium chloride.
The remainder being the heating mixture of potassium chlorate and
lactose.

 

I'm not sure what you're reading, but it might not be the good stuff. :-)

[pycharm]

And one more from Lancaster:

 

In more recent times, many commercial and military smokes have

returned to the potassium chlorate and ammonium chloride mixture

with the addition of lactose and colophony resin. These formulations

naturally vary with the requirements such as the burning time and the

type of container. These smokes however would be based on percentage

of 40-50% of the pine resin and about 10% ammonium chloride.

The remainder being the heating mixture of potassium chlorate and

lactose.

 

I'm not sure what you're reading, but it might not be the good stuff. :-)

Clearly, I missed some articles. Could you point me towards this, please?

[Crazy Swede]

White smoke mixtures based on potassium chlorate, lactose, ammonium chloride and additives like binders, wax etc. have a long track record of being safe.

 

Just do not add anything containing sulfur to the mixture! I once tried adding an organic compound containing sulfur and the smoke device exploded violently upon ignition!

 

Another way to make dense white smoke is to mix potassium chlorate with silicon glue of the type that do NOT produce acid when curing.