Getting licensed

[Mitchell]

What licensing is required to be "legal" in the amateur pyro world? I know a magazine is a must and I have read the regulations concerning getting licensed but I am assuming it is different for every state and could not find anything concrete for MI. If anyone out there is willing to drop me some advice on where to begin this process that would be great. Thanks in advance

[SharkWhisperer]

Licensing is federal and federal regs do not vary by state. But I'm sure your local fire marshal would appreciate notification/discussion/site inspection. You want LE, both local and state, on your side, in addition to following federal laws.

 

You can do many things pyro, legally, without getting licensed, but you are severely hampered by your lack of ability to transport, exchange, or store pyro comps and devices.

 

There are multiple threads on APC and elsewhere on what's involved for licensing and staying within legal boundaries that deserve reading through before asking for the process from A-Z to be explained to you. And the freely available BAFTE Orange Book is a must-have/must-read, which will probably answer most questions you have in mind right now. It's a very good starting point that you will need to eventually be intimately familiar with if licensing is in your future....

[robbo]

You need to talk to someone who's licensed in MI. Preferably in your county. Or find a lawyer with knowledge about the state and local laws. The rest is just noise.

 

Easiest way: Join MPAG. There's some knowledge in that crowd. mpag.org or something. Look it up on the PGI site.

[MikeL]

Since I'm "brand new" I can't start a post, just reply. This one is almost a duplicate of what I was going to ask with the biggest difference being where I live. I'm temporarily working in NW New Mexico and am a resident of Texas.

 

I took note of all of the replies but these stood out:

 

(1) "You want LE, both local and state, on your side, in addition to following federal laws."

 

That makes perfect sense but at the moment it would be difficult to do since I'm not in Texas.The last thing I want to do is get in a bind there.

 

(2) You can do many things pyro, legally, without getting licensed, but you are severely hampered by your lack of ability to transport, exchange, or store pyro comps and devices.

 

That's what I'm finding out (the hampered part). SkyLighter has made it pretty clear that if you buy the right combination of chemicals they aren't going to mess with you. That puts the "newb", like myself, in a if you don't know, how do you know situation... What can I buy and what can't I buy? I have no problem getting the license. There are no gotchas in the background. Hell... I don't even speed anymore getting less young has it's advantages...

 

I'm currently focused on getting my HP rocketry Level 1 certification with an eye toward Level 2 and 3. I want to build my own motors. While trying to learn all I could about making solid rocket fuel I found this forum. I know the rules for launching model rockets. There is no intent to violate those rules here.

 

I am interested in the art of pyrotechnics.

 

So, there's my "Hi, my name is Mike and I am interested in pyro with no clue where to begin" first post...

 

 

[Mumbles]

Glad you found the forum Mike. Welcome.

 

To fill you in a little bit on the vague warnings from Skylighter, they specifically mean people interested in making m-80's ground salutes, bombs, etc. Skylighter was sold a couple of years ago and is now based in California. I don't know the new owner as well or how he handles things, but with the previous owner he had a small team to review orders. Typically it was pretty obvious if you were just interested in making salutes. It's not hard to avoid their scrutiny if you have a legitimate interest in pyrotechnics as a whole. Orders of solely potassium perchlorate, blackhead aluminum, and salute sized tubes are a dead give away. I would avoid purchasing blackhead aluminum on your first few orders, as it basically has one primary use, which is salutes. Otherwise, it's pretty easy to have orders go off without any hassle.

 

You may want to consider trying to attend some club shoots in the area. They're a great way to meet people, make connections, and learn a lot. There's a club, the Western Pyrotechnics Association, that meets near Lake Havasu City, AZ a couple times a year( Texas has their own club as well called the Fire Ants (https://fireants.org/). Depending where you're at in NM, there is also a club in Colorado that I and a few other APC people are a member of. We meet sort of north east of Denver, so it may be kind of a drive (www.rmpg.org).

[MikeL]

Thanks for the great explanation. I have no interest in that sort of thing (M-80's etc.).

 

I really like the idea of being able to make star shells. The commercial shells have gotten pricey but that's not even the reason, I like to make things. I'd rather buy the parts and make something than buy the thing. Unfortunately I am aware of how dangerous they can be. A high school friend (from the mid-paleolithic) lost her son when he set a commercial (fireworks stand quality) tube off with the base on his chest. It happened right after I read about another kid putting one on top of his head. Not much else to say to that...

 

Havasu city is about 3h 15m flight time in a C172 (an older one that's a bit slower than the newer ones) from here so it's not completely out of way. I used to live in Greeley, CO, technically Kersey, CO. That part of the world (Denver and northeast) is definitely a day's drive from Farmington. That gorgeous pile of rocks in the west adds a lot of time to the drive. I had heard of the Fire Ants but I think they are up around Dallas where I am down around the Gulf Coast (NE of Corpus Christi) when I'm home.

 

I have a rocket propellant formula that was developed by the MIT rocket team that I wouldn't mind trying some day. They call it Cherry Limeade. I don't know if I can post PDF's yet and this probably isn't the right place to post it anyway. It's a public document from their Wikl. The used some terms I'm not familiar with yet. 200 AP and 90 AP. I think I know what AP is (ammonium perchlorate. Not exactly the most stable compound to work with), Al is aluminum. Triton X100... no idea. PDMS... no idea. Castor Oil... I know it doesn't taste good. Binder appears to be made of something called HTPB, IDP, and MDI, none of which ring a bell. Then again maybe I don't want to make this ... assumptions can make loud noises so I'd have to confirm all of this before I even thought about making it.

 

Baby steps

Edited October 2, 2020 by MikeL

[Mumbles]

I missed the link for the Western Pyrotechnics Association, who hosts the events near Lake Havasu City. www.westerpyro.org They have a big shoot Presidents Day weekend every year, Winter Blast. There's usually another about this time of year, Do-it, but I believe it was cancelled this year due to the pandemic.

[SharkWhisperer]

Thanks for the great explanation. I have no interest in that sort of thing (M-80's etc.).

 

I really like the idea of being able to make star shells. The commercial shells have gotten pricey but that's not even the reason, I like to make things. I'd rather buy the parts and make something than buy the thing. Unfortunately I am aware of how dangerous they can be. A high school friend (from the mid-paleolithic) lost her son when he set a commercial (fireworks stand quality) tube off with the base on his chest. It happened right after I read about another kid putting one on top of his head. Not much else to say to that...

 

Havasu city is about 3h 15m flight time in a C172 (an older one that's a bit slower than the newer ones) from here so it's not completely out of way. I used to live in Greeley, CO, technically Kersey, CO. That part of the world (Denver and northeast) is definitely a day's drive from Farmington. That gorgeous pile of rocks in the west adds a lot of time to the drive. I had heard of the Fire Ants but I think they are up around Dallas where I am down around the Gulf Coast (NE of Corpus Christi) when I'm home.

 

I have a rocket propellant formula that was developed by the MIT rocket team that I wouldn't mind trying some day. They call it Cherry Limeade. I don't know if I can post PDF's yet and this probably isn't the right place to post it anyway. It's a public document from their Wikl. The used some terms I'm not familiar with yet. 200 AP and 90 AP. I think I know what AP is (ammonium perchlorate. Not exactly the most stable compound to work with), Al is aluminum. Triton X100... no idea. PDMS... no idea. Castor Oil... I know it doesn't taste good. Binder appears to be made of something called HTPB, IDP, and MDI, none of which ring a bell. Then again maybe I don't want to make this ... assumptions can make loud noises so I'd have to confirm all of this before I even thought about making it.

 

Baby steps

A little off-topic from "Getting Licensed", but:

 

PDMS is polydimethylsiloxane, a silicone compound. Also known as dimethicone. Liquid at high temps, rubbery at lower temps (when cured). Fuel. You've maybe used its close relative, simethicone, that's in OTC indigestion/gas relief medicines (Gas-X and others in the USA). It acts as a surfactant to burst/coalesce small gassy fart bubbles into larger, more comfortable ones in your intestines and decrease that "bloated" feeling some might experience after eating certain stuff... If you poke around the site, other silicone household products (GE caulking, for example) are used to make some types of stars, as both binders and fuels, and also hot fuel for igniting thermite (I've used the permanganate recipe, slowed some, for starting campfires in wet conditions, with excellent results).

 

Triton-X100 is a detergent that you'll find in almost every biomed research lab in the world. Used in wash buffers for DNA & protein extraction/analysis, and many other things. Is a non-ionic surfactant, aka detergent. In rocket fuel, can't think of its purpose; it's a clear liquid like slightly thinned colorless honey. Never knew it could burn and was never considered a flammable hazard, but never tried. It was always pretty inexpensive.

 

HTPB is Hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene, a chem of mixed polymer lengths usually that's a viscous opaque whitish liquid commonly used in high-powered rocketry, both as a solidifying binder (makes polyurethanes when mixed with other chems--think skateboard wheels), and also as a fuel.

 

The other acronyms IDP and MDI I don't know from memory, if I ever did, but shouldn't be hard to identify and learn a lot about. There's plenty of high-powered sugar and APCP rocketry sites/forums that you probably be more familiar with than me that would have detailed info on those comps/chems.

 

So you're a pilot, too?!? Super cool!!! I checked out in a C-172, probably your vintage, awhile back. Nothing like flying, even slow Cessnas! More time to enjoy the scenery. I'm only around 200 hours on a Private, but have 21 hours of solid aerobatics "training" in my buddy's Super Decathalon: flying Hammerheads, Cuban 8s, and of course the requisite aileron rolls, loops (love 'em!) and spins (Cessnas will do wonderful Hammerheads and 1G rolls, too). All told, my favorite was just hanging from the straps flying upside down chilling while cruising up the Columbia River gorge (lived OR/WA a bit back). But it's been awhile now--I'm below sea level often these days shooting cuda--but love/miss the freedom of flying!

 

Anyways, welcome to the forum! You've got a lot of open spaces in your neighborhood to test new ideas, with minimal fire danger--very excellent! You'll advance to shells quickly, I'm sure, but have you pretty much optimized your BP-making skills already too? If not, that's really the first step in getting rolling!!

 

Welcome!

[MikeL]

A little off-topic from "Getting Licensed", but:

 

PDMS is polydimethylsiloxane, a silicone compound. Also known as dimethicone. Liquid at high temps, rubbery at lower temps (when cured). Fuel. You've maybe used its close relative, simethicone, that's in OTC indigestion/gas relief medicines (Gas-X and others in the USA). It acts as a surfactant to burst/coalesce small gassy fart bubbles into larger, more comfortable ones in your intestines and decrease that "bloated" feeling some might experience after eating certain stuff... If you poke around the site, other silicone household products (GE caulking, for example) are used to make some types of stars, as both binders and fuels, and also hot fuel for igniting thermite (I've used the permanganate recipe, slowed some, for starting campfires in wet conditions, with excellent results).

 

Triton-X100 is a detergent that you'll find in almost every biomed research lab in the world. Used in wash buffers for DNA & protein extraction/analysis, and many other things. Is a non-ionic surfactant, aka detergent. In rocket fuel, can't think of its purpose; it's a clear liquid like slightly thinned colorless honey. Never knew it could burn and was never considered a flammable hazard, but never tried. It was always pretty inexpensive.

 

HTPB is Hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene, a chem of mixed polymer lengths usually that's a viscous opaque whitish liquid commonly used in high-powered rocketry, both as a solidifying binder (makes polyurethanes when mixed with other chems--think skateboard wheels), and also as a fuel.

 

The other acronyms IDP and MDI I don't know from memory, if I ever did, but shouldn't be hard to identify and learn a lot about. There's plenty of high-powered sugar and APCP rocketry sites/forums that you probably be more familiar with than me that would have detailed info on those comps/chems.

 

So you're a pilot, too?!? Super cool!!! I checked out in a C-172, probably your vintage, awhile back. Nothing like flying, even slow Cessnas! More time to enjoy the scenery. I'm only around 200 hours on a Private, but have 21 hours of solid aerobatics "training" in my buddy's Super Decathalon: flying Hammerheads, Cuban 8s, and of course the requisite aileron rolls, loops (love 'em!) and spins (Cessnas will do wonderful Hammerheads and 1G rolls, too). All told, my favorite was just hanging from the straps flying upside down chilling while cruising up the Columbia River gorge (lived OR/WA a bit back). But it's been awhile now--I'm below sea level often these days shooting cuda--but love/miss the freedom of flying!

 

Anyways, welcome to the forum! You've got a lot of open spaces in your neighborhood to test new ideas, with minimal fire danger--very excellent! You'll advance to shells quickly, I'm sure, but have you pretty much optimized your BP-making skills already too? If not, that's really the first step in getting rolling!!

 

Welcome!

 

I didn't mean to divert the thread. Sorry about that. The realization that pyrotechnics is much more involved than making solid rocket fuel for model rockets keeps smacking me between the eyes

 

The recipe came from a former MIT student, and member of their rocketry club. I can imagine some college students raiding labs and bathrooms for rocket fuel supplies As I understand it, he now works for SpaceX (I think). He's working on a model scale liquid fuel rocket at the moment. None for me thanks. I appreciate the explanations!

 

I think I'm approaching 250 hours. All flying now is in a 1961 C172B. I started lessons in the 80's (C150, C152, C172, C182, I did my mountain checkout to Leadville, CO and back in the C182, and a Warrior where I worked really hard on my instrument rating in the late 80's early 90's, then the wife short circuited and I ended up being a single dad with custody of my 4 kids so flying and my instrument rating stopped until about 2 years ago. I'm still not working on finishing the rating due to lack of a good training aircraft. You would like flying here. Every landing is either on a mesa top (paved runways) or down in the desert. I'm something like 2-4 hours, depending on the route from Mike and Mark Patey (look them up if you don't know who they are). Hopefully that'll be a weekend trip soon. I can literally hop in the aircraft on Sunday morning and stay up for 3-4 hours and not be in any hurry to come back down. I hit all of the little airports I can get to in CO, UT, and AZ plus the local airports in NM. A few months ago I did turns about a point over the 4 Corners monument Other than one spin training lesson I haven't had any aerobatics training but I'd like to.

 

BP... not yet, I buy GOEX 4ffff for ejection charges for the rockets (crazy expensive for not much powder) but if that's a good place to start I'll try it!

 

Thank you...

Edited October 3, 2020 by MikeL

[SharkWhisperer]

Super cool. Envy your locale for both fireworking and flying. I've landed on several a desolate OR highway, turned around back into the wind, stopped and took a break/pee, and launched back skyward. And you can shoot fireworks galore in (relative) desolation. I've been through Leadville. I know 4 corners (from the ground). Great country.

 

About Goex. It's great, it's fine, but it's much more rewarding to make your own BP that matches/exceeds Goex/Old Enford, etc. Last I checked, Goex was around $17/pound in small lots, no? Before tax and shipping? I'm sure there are regional differences. Anyways, it's also very very difficult to 1) locate in some places (although there's online purchase if you pay Hazmat fees); and 2) some states (nanny MA, maybe CA) require a Firearms License to purchase, and companies just won't bother shipping it there. Not to mention that it's generally illegal to "repurpose" commercial BP for making/launching fireworks per se, just like it's illegal to disassemble/rebuild fireworks that are 1.4g consumer type (though many do). My homemade BP is faster than any Goex (important but not the only criterion), takes a day, and costs about $3/pound for chems. And I can formulate it as fast/slow, large granule/dust, as I want. Binder for hard granules to lift shells, or no binder for rocket fuel. No graphite coating.

 

Don't get me wrong--I appreciate commercial BP (it's consistent and you can transport it legally without a license, unlike transporting homemade BP if not licensed), but...why? It's great. But for many fireworkers, especially when you start going larger in shell/rocket size, it becomes expensive fast. And you can't "tune" it, besides selecting different F-sizing. For me, making consistently good charcoal (takes and hour or two) and then great (highly functional) BP with overnight milling/granulating/drying/sieving is a rewarding (and inexpensive) undertaking. Goex burns at one speed, reliably. Great quality control. But workable though not necessarily ideal for diverse fireworking applications. And it has a binder which makes pounding rocket fuel grains problematic. Abandon it? By no means. As a regular BP source for a hobbyist--well it's great but has limitations--we often want to alter our BP burn characteristics beyond simply selecting a different Goex grain size. And you need to crush it to dust if you want to incorporate other chems.

 

Love piloting chat, but let's move that to private messaging because it's rather off-topic (but great!).

 

I fly finned model rockets and regular stick pyro rockets using homemade BP motors. Won't reach the power of APCP, but can do amazing things. Spent $$$ on Estes motors, when I finally learned that I could make them for 10-15% of their cost (not even considering Hazmat fees for >E sized motors!), and make them bigger/longer and reliably. Their silly igniters cost about a buck each; mine are about a penny. Maybe two. And hotter.

 

And shells, whoo hoo! Many of the most basic star formulations for comets, mines, and shells are BP-based (Tiger Tail, Chrysanthemums 6/8...) that are super cheap and easy to make with basic BP ingredients, but would be difficult to do with Goex BP granules of any size, without a large cost and a lot of experimentation. Making decent, reliable BP is Pyro 101, and is both rewarding and cost-minimizing (big difference in amount of star comp/burst/lift used as shells increase by the inch!).

 

Now back to licensing, yikes!

[MikeL]

Aviation - off to PM land

 

BP - there is also a minimum order when you buy online. So, cost x 5 (as in 5 one # jugs) + HazMat (ouch) + tax. Making my own and making it being a good entry point sounds much better to me. Thanks for the info

[Arthur]

The first stage in diy pyro is having a sufficient stash of several grades of good BP.

[Richtee]

What licensing is required to be "legal" in the amateur pyro world? I know a magazine is a must and I have read the regulations concerning getting licensed but I am assuming it is different for every state and could not find anything concrete for MI. If anyone out there is willing to drop me some advice on where to begin this process that would be great. Thanks in advance

Hello from Lake Orion MI ... Is Nighthawkinlight still around? He was licensed here. Fine young man, met him about some cured meat once

[Smokelvr]

What licensing is required to be "legal" in the amateur pyro world? I know a magazine is a must and I have read the regulations concerning getting licensed but I am assuming it is different for every state and could not find anything concrete for MI. If anyone out there is willing to drop me some advice on where to begin this process that would be great. Thanks in advance

Amateur pyro is 'gray', or more precisely, 'white, so long as you avoid crossing certain lines'

if you are not buying commercial fireworks, or making for sale, you don't actually need one, because it's a hobby...

BUT... then you need to know your state laws, which usually have more to do about storage, handling, display and 'public safety' than about rolling your own.