Adding color to my black powder salute cannon?

[SignalKanboom]

Would it be safe to add a metal like barium sulfate (just an example) to my black powder, or would this create a dangerous/illegal composition? I want to load a black powder charge, but either pre, or post mix it with a metal that will give the flame some color. If this can be done safely and legally I would love the help. The salute cannon is a great alternative, but I would love to add some beauty to the noise. Another idea was a salute cannon fountain effect. Is it possible to safely build a hybrid shell/powder that could launched into the air? (Please no talk of flash, or projectiles) Edited June 16, 2020 by SignalKanboom

[Thenupp]

I dont think you can get any green flame form bp and barium sulfate. I personally only know mixes with nitrates and metal powders that will generate a green/red/etc color

[SharkWhisperer]

How big's your cannon barrel ID? Wall thickness? If sufficiently durable, and safely tested and aimed, there's likely a way to use it as a large stargun/small mortar for a mine effect to blow out a variably sized (chosen) stream of brilliant green stars or other effects. Talking about green stars made with or without your barium sulfate--not mixed in with your BP.

 

Seems much simpler than trying to invent a BP that burns green, particularly when considering using barium sulfate, which is a high-temp oxidizer that mostly sees occasional use in hot perchlorate/magnalium stars and strobes. BP just doesn't burn hot enough to make use of the sulfate--it'd probably just slow down your BP's burn rate.

 

Anybody ever mix copper or boron metal dust with BP just because? Anything resembling a green result?

[SignalKanboom]

How big's your cannon barrel ID? Wall thickness? If sufficiently durable, and safely tested and aimed, there's likely a way to use it as a large stargun/small mortar for a mine effect to blow out a variably sized (chosen) stream of brilliant green stars or other effects. Talking about green stars made with or without your barium sulfate--not mixed in with your BP.

 

Seems much simpler than trying to invent a BP that burns green, particularly when considering using barium sulfate, which is a high-temp oxidizer that mostly sees occasional use in hot perchlorate/magnalium stars and strobes. BP just doesn't burn hot enough to make use of the sulfate--it'd probably just slow down your BP's burn rate.

 

Anybody ever mix copper or boron metal dust with BP just because? Anything resembling a green result?

Im no expert obviously and dont have a license. Is it legal to make some of these stars or different comps your speaking of without special licensing? I have two cannons made of high grade stainless (can get the type if needed), it is not welded, it is a cylinder of steel bored out to 1.40 in with a wall thickness of .685 and it is 5 in tall. It will always shoot straight up with no projectile (besides maybe the stars).

Edited June 17, 2020 by SignalKanboom

[SignalKanboom]

What your talking about sounds exactly what I was getting at in the second part of my post. Can you pros help me understand the logic behind black powder compression to noise ratio also? It seems to me that the uneducated school of thought is, pack it as tight as possible for a big booms, but often I hear of rice hulls and loose powder for better bursts because there is room for oxygen. I know this is a lot to ask and any help is appreciated. Everyone has opinions and......well.. mouths, but not all mouths speak the truth.

[SharkWhisperer]

Look up the BAFTE Orange Book for detailed explanation. Technically, if you're in a safe spot (given distance from residences/audiences), then building (on site--not transporting--that's illegal) and using the same day is allowed. That says nothing about state or local regs. Read the manual and use common sense. Nobody here will purport to give you binding legal advice.

 

The BP you already have for a legitimate purpose, your cannon. You're not manufacturing BP.

 

Rubber (parlon) stars, screen-cut to desired size and primed, can be made, tested, and shot the same afternoon (the compositions are not complicated and are bound with acetone (HD or fingernail polish remover from dollar store--if the latter, read the label to make sure it's pure acetone and not a bunch of other junk) which evaporates quickly.. There are simple formulas for making brilliant reds/greens/whites. For that small bore, you'd probably want stars around 1/4-5/16" after priming.

 

Gorski has a good tutorial on brilliant red rubber stars available at: https://www.skylighter.com/blogs/how-to-make-fireworks/screen-sliced-red-rubber-stars , and follows it up with other color compositions at: https://www.skylighter.com/blogs/how-to-make-fireworks/rainbow-rubber-stars . All associated chems are legal to purchase, own, and transport, but don't be a knucklehead and store your oxidizer next to your fuel(s), please. Those chems are in my experience cheapest at fireworkscookbook.com , though I'm always happy to be corrected on things that save me money.

 

Also, know exactly what you're getting yourself into. Read the tutorials and then seek the appropriate background information. BP to star ratio? Appropriate load sizes. Gotta tell you that's a rather short mine for that barrel ID. So you might get a very loose star-distribution pattern coming out of the barrel and beyond. How much BP do you typically load and what grade (granule size) is it? Is that lil' cannon mounted on anything or locked down in any way? You're going to want your cannon stabilized and start with low powder and payload volumes to start small/safe, and dial it up incrementally til you have the desired effect without approaching the limits of your equipment.

 

With 4 posts, we don't know much about your experience beyond a 1.4" x 5" BP-burning salute cannon. Even relatively "safe" compositions can become deadly if appropriate safety precautions are not stringently adhered to. This includes mixing limited batch sizes, outside or in an isolated shed/workshop with non-sparking materials, and wearing appropriate protective gear--glasses, gloves, long sleeves, no synthetics that stick to skin like napalm when burning.. Water bucket(s) and fire extinguisher(s) at hand. Scour, please, the Safety Subsection here, and read applicable threads. They are important. Yes, it can probably be done. But safety should be your largest concern.

[SignalKanboom]

Let me give you some background then. Since I was a kid the Fourth of July was my favorite holiday and I have always had an obsession with fireworks. The loud booms, as well as the complex artistry that goes into shells. I bought the cannons as a safer alternative to fireworks that make comparable booms (the fun kind). I matured and realized that not knowing whos making them means it could be some guy using chlorate, or god forbid some other mixture that degrades and becomes sensitive to shock. I have family to keep safe, so I decided consumer fireworks and signal cannons were safer then putting my trust in friends of friends that lack the accolades.

The safety process I use for my cannon goes as follows, I place 2x10 steel press shims around the cannon in case it ever catos, all on top of a wood or concrete base, Sometimes I bury it, but either way I always take precautions. The powder requirements are provided by the company that made the cannon. To the best of my knowledge they seem reasonable. I have seen many thinner cannons put through much worse (the younger dumber me was a witness). The smaller cannon is 300 grains of bp fffg, the larger cannon takes 1000 grains of fffg. It then says to use newspaper wadding packed down with a rubber mallet, using the aluminum tamper that comes with the cannon. The cannons are pretty popular. I will not mention the name because I am not a shill for them, but they are easy to find on google, YouTube, gunbroker. They are the thickest and most solid I have seen for consumer purchase.

It seems they are not appropriate for what I am trying to do. I really just wanted to add some color to the flame, sounds like the stars would be too dangerous. If anyone has suggestions on loading procedure, powder, and safety Im all ears.

[SignalKanboom]

I will definitely read the BATFE orange book and, it is good to know I could make these stars for use the same day, out of the appropriate equipment (not my current signal cannons). Thanks for this, it is appreciated.

[SignalKanboom]

I thought it was illegal to purchase oxidizer or aluminum powder as per the orange book (I didnt know I had read some of the orange book) because even separate it is considered explosive material?

[SharkWhisperer]

I thought it was illegal to purchase oxidizer or aluminum powder as per the orange book (I didnt know I had read some of the orange book) because even separate it is considered explosive material?

Nah, classical FP components are not an explosive until mixed. Some companies, but not all, will place annual limits on pyro Al or oxidizers if you're not licensed, and many will have raised eyebrows if a new customer orders perc and pyro metals only on their very first chem order.

 

Chem availability is not an issue. Good ol' Murica.

 

That said, it sounds like your cannon is a horse if it's blasting 65 grams of BP at a time out a 5"-long barrel. Or was I mistaken and you were trying to impart that you have two cannons, one with a 1.25" ID and one with a 5" ID barrel? As a sidenote, most folks here don't reload their own ammo or compound their own meds, so therefore might not understand grains as a measurement; grams is more commonly used mass measurement unit in the pyro community.

 

You could get the same effect, safely, using a 1x6" thick-walled cardboard tube, or even larger, to make mines. Epoxied to wood or plastic base, fuse hole at bottom, a bit of BP (start at 10% of payload weight and go up from there, if needed) poured down the mouth. 3Fg is fine for a lift charge. Add a baggie of primed stars on top and let 'er rip. There's a lot of materials used for mines/starguns/mortars, but PVC shouldn't be one of them. Cardboard, fiberglass and HDPE are typical for launching small backyard stuff and HDPE/fiberglass are very common for pro shows with big shells, too. Some use steel. My combo steel stargun goes from 3/8" to 1.25" ID...I use HDPE for shells and small semi-disposable starguns. I've gone through many cardboard starguns before, of varying diameters. Little cardboard tubes are tougher than you'd imagine, but will of course blow up if you push them too far (as will any material). Point being you could put on a pretty cool small show with or without your cannons.

[SignalKanboom]

Small cannon- id(.75) height(3.5) load(20g bp) fffg

Large cannon- id(1.4) height(5) load(65 grams) fffg

Both packed with newspaper is what manufacturer recommends. I have only loaded one sheet of printer paper and makes a good bang. I know I could push it further, but havent yet. I have lots of questions though. The info about chems is good to know. The paper tube method for loud safe salute what is the method in more detail? This can be loaded with stars as well?

 

 

They say to pack my cannons for as much noise as possible, but your saying just pouring 3f down the mouth gives a good bang?

Edited June 17, 2020 by SignalKanboom

[SharkWhisperer]

Small cannon- id(.75) height(3.5) load(20g bp) fffg

Large cannon- id(1.4) height(5) load(65 grams) fffg

Both packed with newspaper is what manufacturer recommends. I have only loaded one sheet of printer paper and makes a good bang. I know I could push it further, but havent yet. I have lots of questions though. The info about chems is good to know. The paper tube method for loud safe salute what is the method in more detail? This can be loaded with stars as well?

 

 

They say to pack my cannons for as much noise as possible, but your saying just pouring 3f down the mouth gives a good bang?

Again, I remain uncertain if "height'' means vertical stature when barrel is pointing forward or if it is barrel length, which is the critical determinant in tube selection in fireworking. Search the threads for "stargun", "mines" and perhaps small mortars--about the simplest construction possible. Tubes cardboard or plastic, sealed/plugged on one end, are the launcher. Essentialy identical to consumer aerial mortars that you buy at the store in states that sell fireworks. Small units can be used to test individual stars (burning component in aerial fireworks) or can handle a small load of many stars. These small units are typically lit through a bottom fusehole. Big mortars that launch the 4th of July 6" diameter fireworks shells and their brethren are lit from the top using a leader fuse that is beyond your scope right now. For starguns (and larger mortars, too), the ID/length ratio is typically approximately 1:6, though this is not a hard and fast rule. Longer will keep a tighter pattern; shorter will give more dispersion. Like a shotgun choke. Whether good homemade or commercially purchased BP, 3Fg granule size is fine for launching starguns and for launching smallish mine loads (essentially a collection of stars that burn on their way upwards but are not tightly wrapped inside discrete aerial shells that explode and distribute/ignite the included star collection). Think "fine" as in tubes up to 3" in diameter. There's videos galore of all as examples on YouTube, and there's tons of threads on both. Look up "mines". Look up "starguns". You don't need to be expert in all things pyro to use these simple devices, which require only simple compositions for stars, and simple construction. And some fuse. I cannot say anything more about your cannons' ability to be converted to mini-mortars to launch small/moderate mine loads because I remain unclear on your barrel length specs--"height" is a meaningless term with respect to most pyro launching device specifications; hence the potential misunderstanding and cross-communication on this point.. We're probably using different words to refer to the exact same thing, but that would involve assumption and guessing, neither of which are friends of fireworkers. In terms of "boom" volume and color, there's likely a trade-off. More BP means more gas production and pressurization which means more sound. In fireworking, mortars and mines can be loud indeed, but their primary goal is to launch pretty flammables high into the sky while they ignite, both due to the BP lift/ignition charge. If you use too much lift, you risk stars being "blown blind", aka not igniting and being wasted. If you use too little lift, you risk stars igniting and then falling back to earth still burning hot, which can cause injuries and property/landscape damage, aka fires. It's a balance, but one that is typically easy and quick to achieve with a little experimentation. Your cannons use wadded up printer paper to hold the BP in place and to create a slight restriction that enhances the deflagration volume. The same approach is used in mortars/mines (again, a mine is just a short mortar), frequently by pushing an ID-fitted circle of cardboard or two (endcaps) down the tube after loading with lift BP and star/effect payload.

[SignalKanboom]

Again, I remain uncertain if "height'' means vertical stature when barrel is pointing forward or if it is barrel length, which is the critical determinant in tube selection in fireworking. Search the threads for "stargun", "mines" and perhaps small mortars--about the simplest construction possible. Tubes cardboard or plastic, sealed/plugged on one end, are the launcher. Essentialy identical to consumer aerial mortars that you buy at the store in states that sell fireworks. Small units can be used to test individual stars (burning component in aerial fireworks) or can handle a small load of many stars. These small units are typically lit through a bottom fusehole. Big mortars that launch the 4th of July 6" diameter fireworks shells and their brethren are lit from the top using a leader fuse that is beyond your scope right now. For starguns (and larger mortars, too), the ID/length ratio is typically approximately 1:6, though this is not a hard and fast rule. Longer will keep a tighter pattern; shorter will give more dispersion. Like a shotgun choke. Whether good homemade or commercially purchased BP, 3Fg granule size is fine for launching starguns and for launching smallish mine loads (essentially a collection of stars that burn on their way upwards but are not tightly wrapped inside discrete aerial shells that explode and distribute/ignite the included star collection). Think "fine" as in tubes up to 3" in diameter. There's videos galore of all as examples on YouTube, and there's tons of threads on both. Look up "mines". Look up "starguns". You don't need to be expert in all things pyro to use these simple devices, which require only simple compositions for stars, and simple construction. And some fuse. I cannot say anything more about your cannons' ability to be converted to mini-mortars to launch small/moderate mine loads because I remain unclear on your barrel length specs--"height" is a meaningless term with respect to most pyro launching device specifications; hence the potential misunderstanding and cross-communication on this point.. We're probably using different words to refer to the exact same thing, but that would involve assumption and guessing, neither of which are friends of fireworkers. In terms of "boom" volume and color, there's likely a trade-off. More BP means more gas production and pressurization which means more sound. In fireworking, mortars and mines can be loud indeed, but their primary goal is to launch pretty flammables high into the sky while they ignite, both due to the BP lift/ignition charge. If you use too much lift, you risk stars being "blown blind", aka not igniting and being wasted. If you use too little lift, you risk stars igniting and then falling back to earth still burning hot, which can cause injuries and property/landscape damage, aka fires. It's a balance, but one that is typically easy and quick to achieve with a little experimentation. Your cannons use wadded up printer paper to hold the BP in place and to create a slight restriction that enhances the deflagration volume. The same approach is used in mortars/mines (again, a mine is just a short mortar), frequently by pushing an ID-fitted circle of cardboard or two (endcaps) down the tube after loading with lift BP and star/effect payload.

[pyrokid]

If you're going to such trouble for your cannon installation, you could place some more traditional pyrotechnic mortars adjacent to the cannon and ignite them simultaneously. The cannon would give noise, and the star mine would give the visual effects. When pyrotechnists fire projectiles out of steel mortars, they like the mortars to be buried. Other cool ideas for you to search are cremora fireballs and ghost mines.

 

I think it's very easy to break the law when dabbling in energetic materials. Ask yourself: "Is what I'm doing immoral? Will I get caught? Can I afford to suffer the consequences of my actions if overzealous, often ignorant law-enforcers discover my operation?"

[SignalKanboom]

I apologize, the length of the entire cannon is 5.25 inches, yielding a barrel length of approximately 5 inches. It aims straight up and is built to fire only one way(the way I like).

I understand now that when you said I could accomplish my goal with a cardboard tube, you meant the aesthetic goal I inquired about with my first two posts, not the salute cannon/noise goal. I was assuming you were saying that I could accomplish the noise performance of my signal cannon, as well as the beauty I was looking for, simply by using a cardboard tube and the methods you are presenting.

I understand what to research for mines and stars, thanks to you. What about best procedures for my signal cannon? I hear about people packing all kinds of crazy things into their cannons that seem like they would cause much more pressure than a projectile would(clay, kitty litter, wet paper), but I havent tried to learn any physics/calculus methods to actually calculate the limits of this cannon(Not that I want to push the limits). Do you have any experience with safe packing methods for better salutes, or is it best to just use dry paper packed on top of the bp?

[SignalKanboom]

If you're going to such trouble for your cannon installation, you could place some more traditional pyrotechnic mortars adjacent to the cannon and ignite them simultaneously. The cannon would give noise, and the star mine would give the visual effects. When pyrotechnists fire projectiles out of steel mortars, they like the mortars to be buried. Other cool ideas for you to search are cremora fireballs and ghost mines.

 

I think it's very easy to break the law when dabbling in energetic materials. Ask yourself: "Is what I'm doing immoral? Will I get caught? Can I afford to suffer the consequences of my actions if overzealous, often ignorant law-enforcers discover my operation?"

Are you saying the salute cannon is illegal? I spent plenty of time looking into that, I even asked the fire chief if salute cannons were legal and their office said yes. I then called the APA and asked about the signal cannons and they said they were legal. As far as anything else goes if its not legal to do then simply wont do it and have no problem sticking to consumer fireworks.

Edited June 17, 2020 by SignalKanboom

[pyrokid]

For example, if you start adding materials to your signal cannon with the intention that they are to be projected from the cannon, it may cease to be a signal cannon in the eyes of the law. Enforcement of laws pertaining to fireworks varies widely. Sometimes if the AHJ wants you to have a bad day, he can make sure of it. I've seen and heard some really stupid things.

 

I'm not trying to discourage you, but you shouldn't have any misconception about these things.

 

One idea: electrical firing of consumer fireworks IS legal. Put two ematches in series. One ematch on a consumer mine shell, and one on the cannon.

[SignalKanboom]

That doesnt sound legal. A good old fuse and black powder is what I know is perfectly acceptable, and is all I will be using for my salute cannon. You definitely dont make the hobby sound fun, or possible for that matter. Guess its store bought fireworks and the signal cannon.

[Mumbles]

The hobby can definitely lead into somewhat of a grey area of the law. Most actual laws deal with storage and transportation. The actual manufacture of pyrotechnic devices is legal federally. Local laws may differ, but largely are generally allowed. If you want to be totally covered, you will want a magazine to store things in. It doesn't have to be registered, just meet guidelines. As long as you don't transport of the property, your generally fine.

[SignalKanboom]

I guess I will continue to read about it. I think I need to research more and possibly wait until the next fourth.