CIA black powder without isoprpiyl

[pjn228]

Right now alcohol is as scarce as toilet paper. I be been thinking about an alternative. Get an electric frypan, and a SS pressure cooker. Add k, c, and s with the minimum water to the pressure cooker and seal it, using the 15 lbs weight. . Set the pressure cooker on to the frypan , set to 300 degrees, and plug in (at end of long extension chord). Let the fry pan heat the pressure cooker till it reaches full pressure and cook for 5 minutes. . This will melt the sulfur nicely into the carbon. Then unplug the fry pan, remove the fry pan control, and spray the pressure cooker with a hose of cold water. The pressure cooker will cool very fast, and even create a vacuum . Keep running cold water till the pot is cold. Open , drain off the water and filter through a bed sheet. Hence black powder with no alcohol. My question is : is there any chance if a blowup? I Do not want to make a bomb. Any thoughts?

[memo]

use a regular method to make black powder, i thought the cia method was a joke. use dextrin for a binder. i use alcohol to bind my black powder, not having any luck finding it either. i'm going to try lacquer thinner and see if that will work

[Arthur]

The so called CIA method may or not have origins in that agency but it is a field expedient method when nothing else is available and it produces really poor powder. Get over it and get a decent method of making decent powder in reasonable quantities and a small selection of mesh sizes. Without a ball mill you are on a hiding to nothing unless you really only want a gram or two by mortar and pestle. With a cheap (Harbor Fright etc) rock tumbler you are set for 100g batches with carefully chosen media.

[MadMat]

Memo, while in the hardware store looking for lacquer thinner, check to see if they have denatured alcohol or methanol . It is usually right next to the lacquer thinner, acetone, ect. I normally use denatured alcohol instead of isopropyl, but I've used methanol as well, both of these work just fine. Now, as far as the CIA method... In my opinion, it's garbage. A ball mill isn't that big of a deal, in fact, I made my own for less than $20. It's limited to a batch size of around 150 grams maximum, but I've made many batches of excellent BP with it.

Edited April 22, 2020 by MadMat

[justvisiting]

I'm experimenting right now with an acetone/CMC/water binding method. It's drying now. I would not use lacquer thinner if acetone was available. I agree with others that the CIA method produces poor powder at high cost and effort. I'd never bother with it, when milling is so much easier, cheaper and more effective.

[Arthur]

While "not wanting to make a bomb" is a good attitude, this is pyro, and lots of accidents have happened over the years. ALL you can do is minimise the risk and minimise the hazard.

[memo]

Memo, while in the hardware store looking for lacquer thinner, check to see if they have denatured alcohol or methanol . It is usually right next to the lacquer thinner, acetone, ect. I normally use denatured alcohol instead of isopropyl, but I've used methanol as well, both of these work just fine. Now, as far as the CIA method... In my opinion, it's garbage. A ball mill isn't that big of a deal, in fact, I made my own for less than $20. It's limited to a batch size of around 150 grams maximum, but I've made many batches of excellent BP with it.

 

madmat i would love to have the box store option. i live out in the sticks in costa rica about a 5 hour drive 1 way to have that chance. did find some multi use alcohol today 500 ml for $ 8.00

 

[justvisiting]

I attempted to make a BP ball with just lacquer thinner, and there did not seem to be any significant binding. I attempted to make an emulsion with lacquer thinner/water, but the liquids separated immediately. My experiment with acetone/CMC/water was successful. Alcohol/CMC/water was very similar in behavior, generally speaking. I still wonder- what was the intended application for the OP's black powder?

[memo]

well if you going to use cmc , why not dextrin and water. i used cmc when making black match and it seemed slower than dextrin

 

i gave up on the lacquer thinner idea also. just need to find more isp. i did find 2 and a half liters in my shop i forgot about. happy days

Edited April 23, 2020 by memo

[Jimjimboom]

Can you tell me more about the ethanol / metho! I have molecular sieves do i need to remove the water for best results? Is dextrine required? I have some but dont know how much to add as i have read conflicting stories? I'm very green, even tho i first dipped my toe into the hobby at 15 im now 38 but at 15 i had no source of litriture and other pyro's are extremly rare where i live! Downunder! I have a small ball mill/ rock tumbler i have made some fast bp with balsa charcoal does anyone have any thoughts on australian native wood that makes fast powder? As willow is a illegal weed here, while it grows drown south i cant access any! And i cant order from pyro stores as there are none here! Im limited to 1 supplier that is a pyro himself but cant discus anything as it would risk his lic to sell chems! Im just assuming this as the chems he supplies are rather specific!

Can you tell me more about the ethanol / metho! I have molecular sieves do i need to remove the water for best results? Is dextrine required? I have some but dont know how much to add as i have read conflicting stories? I'm very green, even tho i first dipped my toe into the hobby at 15 im now 38 but at 15 i had no source of litriture and other pyro's are extremly rare where i live! Downunder! I have a small ball mill/ rock tumbler i have made some fast bp with balsa charcoal does anyone have any thoughts on australian native wood that makes fast powder? As willow is a illegal weed here, while it grows drown south i cant access any! And i cant order from pyro stores as there are none here! Im limited to 1 supplier that is a pyro himself but cant discus anything as it would risk his lic to sell chems! Im just assuming this as the chems he supplies are rather specific!

[Jimjimboom]

Should have mentioned i only got back into the hobby recently! At 15 my mates dad got a pag of saltpeter and a bag of sulfer and let us attempt to make bp! But we had not much of an idea and it burned very slow! So we did not make any successful things besides fountains which we thought were the bees knees! I have improved alot i can now make rockets and headings but i have not tried mortors yet as i have to learn everything by watching neds videos, and i started with rockets as i always have loved to watch them!

[justvisiting]

Jim, alcohol is being mentioned here in two completely different contexts that have no relation to each other. In the CIA method, the alcohol is being used to precipitate fine potassium nitrate particles from solution, instead of ball milling it. The method is a pyrotechnic oddity, and is not used by serious pyros. I'm sure an exception exists.

 

In the 'other' alcohol talk, the alcohol is being mixed with ball milled black powder, and formed into a black 'snowball'. The ball is then grated through a screen to make screen-granulated black powder. Pure alcohol generally makes for dusty, soft grains. Rubbing alcohol is 30% water, and makes harder grains than straight alcohol, because some of the potassium nitrate dissolves and acts as a cement when the grains are dry. Dextrin requires water to have binding ability. It also slows black powder down.

 

There are many ways to prepare black powder. First, one has to determine what the powder will be used for. Then a process can be chosen that best suits the user's needs.

[SeaMonkey]

There are a few experimenters who do use the "liquid" process to

make their Black Powder. With adequate safety precautions and

good attention to detail it can be done with a reasonably good

result. It is messy but some prefer it to the usual method.

 

GhoolerHunter has made this video showing how he does it.

 

The idea is to mix the three ingredients into just enough cold

water to make a saturated solution when it is heated only enough

to begin boiling. This will minimize the amount of water in the mix

which will make the precipitation of the Saltpeter much faster and

with very tiny particles resulting in the best incorporation when

the cold Isopropanol is dumped into the hot mix with vigorous

stirring.

 

The Isopropyl Alcohol used should be at least 90% and this can be

easily made with either 50% or 70% Rubbing Alcohol. Overengineered

has made a video showing the principle and how it is done.

 

TrollFaceTheMan has made a good video as well.

 

The process can be scaled up to concentrate as much Rubbing Alcohol

as one needs. For best separation after the salt is mixed with the rubbing

alcohol sufficiently, the mixture should sit for preferably 24 hours to achieve

best separation of water into the salt. This is essentially the same method

which was used to draw the water out of freshly produced Nitroglycerine in

the era when it was used for making Dynamite.

 

The concentrated Isopropyl Alcohol will be from 90% to 95% pure after the

separation of water has taken place.

 

While the Liquid Method of making Black Powder could be done as a last

resort, the process is very messy; it always results in some loss of product

and the heat source must be temperature controlled to avoid overheating

the liquid mixture. Anyone who may attempt the process out of curiosity

should work with small quantities of materials and spend time studying the

process and its hazards to assure adequate safety for all concerned.

Edited April 27, 2020 by SeaMonkey