Safely Milling Al

[Guest PyroManiac1]

I know that when you mill Al for a long period of time without letting oxygen into the vessel can cause a dangerous reaction. My question is, how often, during a 48 hour period of milling, do you have to air out your milling vessel?

[SharkWhisperer]

I know that when you mill Al for a long period of time without letting oxygen into the vessel can cause a dangerous reaction. My question is, how often, during a 48 hour period of milling, do you have to air out your milling vessel?

Open it, wearing full protective gear including a mask, over your goggles--you like your eyes, no?) every few hours.

 

Why the hell not just pay trivia vs what your labor/time inputs are and buy some hot Al if that's what you're after. Check Dixie.

 

Apologies if you're in a locale/country where that is just not possible.

 

Maybe check elementmaker's video on Al ?

[Guest PyroManiac1]

Hello my friend! Real dark German pyro grade aluminum is a bit pricey where I am. Also it is a fun little project. I did see Elemental Maker's video and it didn't seem very difficult to make small batches. Elemental Maker was a bit lax on safety though. You don't want that fine aluminum dust in your lungs without some kind of mask.

[SharkWhisperer]

Hello my friend! Real dark German pyro grade aluminum is a bit pricey where I am. Also it is a fun little project. I did see Elemental Maker's video and it didn't seem very difficult to make small batches. Elemental Maker was a bit lax on safety though. You don't want that fine aluminum dust in your lungs without some kind of mask.

Well alright, get to it then!

 

But many of EM's videos, as you know, are very lazy on the safety aspects. That's fine if he's willing to blow his own nose off, but instills very poor safety habits (and knowledge) into newer folks that are following step-by-step; eventually somebody's gonna get hurt...

[PHI]

For Al, it's Okey sand a coke can, and lather use a ball mill? Edited March 20, 2020 by PHI

[SharkWhisperer]

For Al, it's Okey sand a coke can, and lather use a ball mill?

Uuuh, ok. Perhaps try that message again in a language that humans actually can understand?

 

Al sands up coke cans and lathers his mill?

 

wtf?

[PHI]

Uuuh, ok. Perhaps try that message again in a language that humans actually can understand?

 

Al sands up coke cans and lathers his mill?

 

wtf?

First of all sorry for my english.

 

I'm asking if it's possible to get

aluminum powder by sanding a can of coke and then grinding the powder.

 

Thanks for reading

Edited March 20, 2020 by PHI

[Piccaso]

It's possible but I wouldn't. If it is not available where you live to purchase I would try removing some from paint first before all that.

[SharkWhisperer]

First of all sorry for my english.

 

I'm asking if it's possible to get

aluminum powder by sanding a can of coke and then grinding the powder.

 

Thanks for reading

Aha! Well then, like Picasso said, there may be better ways to acquire it. Remember that, apart from cans not weighing very much, maybe a half ounce (15 grams or so) aluminum beverage cans have paint on the outside and a thin plastic or epoxy protective liner on the inside, so you would need to get rid of that first--who knows how it would affect your compositions even if it were a small percentage--maybe a little maybe not so much. And then sanding might take literally forever, depending on your equipment--please wear a respirator/mask to avoid getting powdered metals in your face holes--it's not very healthy.. And, depending on your sanding media, your Al might possibly become contaminated with sanding media debris, which might be a problem. Oh, and at least some aluminum can tops are made of some type of magnalium to strengthen them (unknown ratio of Mg to Al). And I have no idea if cans made with recycled cans also contain a fraction of that alloy--it's difficult to imagine separating lids from body before melting, or separating the metals after melting, but some of the metallurgists on here might have answers to those questions. So you might end up with something that's not pure Al powder. But a little Mg or MgAl mixed in with mostly Al would probably work well for many compositions. What are you planning to make?

 

Recovering Al metal from aluminum paint might be feasible, and probably is the fastest way to obtain bright flake Al if the paint is available, but that might also get expensive. It would need additional milling if bright Al was not your goal. There are several threads and videos available where folk have made small quantities of apparently decent Al powder by grinding and ball milling aluminum foil. I haven't tried it, but it's difficult to imagine that you could get a large working quantity fast. If you try milling foil (or sanded/ground-up cans, or paint-derived Al), please familiarize yourself with the potential problems involved in milling reactive metals, and the need to burp your container (let some air in) periodically so you don't have any potentially painful auto-ignition experiences from newly exposed metal surfaces rapidly reacting exothermically with atmospheric oxygen when opening your mill jar after extended milling times. And please read up on which milling media would be appropriate for this task.

 

Apologies for the tone of my first comment, and I'm appreciative that English may not be your native language, but it was very difficult to decode your original message with certainty. Perhaps Google Translate or a spell-checking program could be useful when you discuss pyro methods and compositions in more detail, which is likely to occur. It's critical that communications regarding pyro activities be crystal clear, or close at least, because miscommunication can be hazardous to life and limb in this hobby.

 

Curious where you are located? There must be other experienced pyros in your region that have already solved this unfortunate problem, and are willing to help you out.

 

Anyways, good luck with your quest for acquiring or making decent Al powder. Please report back on the success of your mission and which approach you decided to take. It really sucks when people can't easily access basic pyro chemicals, and I'm always impressed with the ingenuity that many pyros show in making their own.

Edited March 22, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[rellim]

You could try this:

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/aluminium_powder_from_kitchen_foil_by_blender.pdf

[BetICouldMake1]

Man that hair dryer rig is terrifying.

[PHI]

It's possible but I wouldn't. If it is not available where you live to purchase I would try removing some from paint first before all that.

Hi Picasso,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm looking for a way to produce it. Because it's not simple to buy aluminium powder

[PHI]

Aha! Well then, like Picasso said, there may be better ways to acquire it. Remember that, apart from cans not weighing very much, maybe a half ounce (15 grams or so) aluminum beverage cans have paint on the outside and a thin plastic or epoxy protective liner on the inside, so you would need to get rid of that first--who knows how it would affect your compositions even if it were a small percentage--maybe a little maybe not so much. And then sanding might take literally forever, depending on your equipment--please wear a respirator/mask to avoid getting powdered metals in your face holes--it's not very healthy.. And, depending on your sanding media, your Al might possibly become contaminated with sanding media debris, which might be a problem. Oh, and at least some aluminum can tops are made of some type of magnalium to strengthen them (unknown ratio of Mg to Al). And I have no idea if cans made with recycled cans also contain a fraction of that alloy--it's difficult to imagine separating lids from body before melting, or separating the metals after melting, but some of the metallurgists on here might have answers to those questions. So you might end up with something that's not pure Al powder. But a little Mg or MgAl mixed in with mostly Al would probably work well for many compositions. What are you planning to make?

 

Recovering Al metal from aluminum paint might be feasible, and probably is the fastest way to obtain bright flake Al if the paint is available, but that might also get expensive. It would need additional milling if bright Al was not your goal. There are several threads and videos available where folk have made small quantities of apparently decent Al powder by grinding and ball milling aluminum foil. I haven't tried it, but it's difficult to imagine that you could get a large working quantity fast. If you try milling foil (or sanded/ground-up cans, or paint-derived Al), please familiarize yourself with the potential problems involved in milling reactive metals, and the need to burp your container (let some air in) periodically so you don't have any potentially painful auto-ignition experiences from newly exposed metal surfaces rapidly reacting exothermically with atmospheric oxygen when opening your mill jar after extended milling times. And please read up on which milling media would be appropriate for this task.

 

Apologies for the tone of my first comment, and I'm appreciative that English may not be your native language, but it was very difficult to decode your original message with certainty. Perhaps Google Translate or a spell-checking program could be useful when you discuss pyro methods and compositions in more detail, which is likely to occur. It's critical that communications regarding pyro activities be crystal clear, or close at least, because miscommunication can be hazardous to life and limb in this hobby.

 

Curious where you are located? There must be other experienced pyros in your region that have already solved this unfortunate problem, and are willing to help you out.

 

Anyways, good luck with your quest for acquiring or making decent Al powder. Please report back on the success of your mission and which approach you decided to take. It really sucks when people can't easily access basic pyro chemicals, and I'm always impressed with the ingenuity that many pyros show in making their own.

 

Hello shark whisper,

 

No problem, I know that when talking about these issues it is necessary to be clear, because an accident can happen.

I'm trying to write in English but it's not easy (everything sounds great XD XD in my opinion).

 

As for the AL powder, I know that on contact with air it can explode, but opening the bottle once every hour must be ok, right?

 

Regarding the cans, you are right, they do not weigh much and removing the paint must be complicated, but what about aluminum bars, for construction, etc.

Those have greater weight, and do not bring paint.

Would it be possible to sand them?

 

I am from Europe, and I have not found a forum similar to this one.

I imagine this forum is from the USA (are you all from the USA?)

 

I must also say that I love this forum, very kind people who help in everything, so I really thank you.

I am building a homemade rocket, and I am interested in testing homemade fuels, and aluminum is a good compound that I want to test.

 

I am going to open a thread in the forum to go into a little detail of the process that I am following in case someone else is interested.

 

Out of curiosity, what if I smell aluminum powder?(I mean if it's something very serious or just something you shouldn't do)

 

And iron oxide, it's volatile and toxic as aluminium?

 

Thank you so much,

Regards

[SharkWhisperer]

Hello shark whisper,

 

No problem, I know that when talking about these issues it is necessary to be clear, because an accident can happen.

I'm trying to write in English but it's not easy (everything sounds great XD XD in my opinion).

 

As for the AL powder, I know that on contact with air it can explode, but opening the bottle once every hour must be ok, right?

 

Regarding the cans, you are right, they do not weigh much and removing the paint must be complicated, but what about aluminum bars, for construction, etc.

Those have greater weight, and do not bring paint.

Would it be possible to sand them?

 

I am from Europe, and I have not found a forum similar to this one.

I imagine this forum is from the USA (are you all from the USA?)

 

I must also say that I love this forum, very kind people who help in everything, so I really thank you.

I am building a homemade rocket, and I am interested in testing homemade fuels, and aluminum is a good compound that I want to test.

 

I am going to open a thread in the forum to go into a little detail of the process that I am following in case someone else is interested.

 

Out of curiosity, what if I smell aluminum powder?(I mean if it's something very serious or just something you shouldn't do)

 

And iron oxide, it's volatile and toxic as aluminium?

 

Thank you so much,

Regards

You can probably burn the paint off of cans--unsure about the inner epoxy lining, or what effect that would have on the final product. Aluminum bars make great Al powder. How to sand them? Perhaps a diamond wheel would not admit much junk into your sanded Al, whereas with typical sand paper, you'd get more sand/other abrasive than Al, probably. It would be junk, I'd imagine. Plus, how do you plan to capture sanded aluminum--the stuff is airfloat (eventually) and you definitely do not want to breath that in. Use a mask, please, when working with powdered metals--they are not good for your lungs. Iron oxide is less of a problem--it's just rust, but you don't want to be breathing that in,either. Neither are "volatile", i.e., they do not evaporate. But finely powdered Al can easily float in the air for extended times, mostly invisible, while you unwittingly breath it in. Not good.

 

Ballmilling Al and safety (opening jar) largely depends on milling efficiency and size of your Al batch. A shitty mill might only need opening once/day in a rock tumbler. A strong mill with hard media and a large Al batch might need opening every couple of hours. It's empirical, but err on the side of caution. As always, use safety PPE gear. Glasses/leather gloves/long cotton sleeved shirts.

 

If you haven't perfected a hot black powder that should be your primary goal for making rockets. Leave the Al ideas alone. Al won't repair shitty BP, it'll just make it more dangerous in your case, and make your already unpredictable BP even more unpredictable. You CAN make good BP, maybe even without a ball-mill, though a home-made ball mill will make your life 1000x easier. Some people report hot BP from good starting ingredients, very fine, just by screen mixing. Others use the CIA (cold isopropyl alcohol) method, but I've never tried it, and it doesn't seem either pleasant or inexpensive to do. Meh.

 

In Europe you can find parts to make a homemade mill inexpensively. There are many tutorials here and elsewhere on how to build them properly. You absolutely need one, in my opinion, to make top-notch rocket fuel. Even a cheap rock tumbler works wonders compared to whatever you're doing now. That should be your goal--hot BP. Then, after you've CATO'd a few rockets with BP alone, and understand its nature, and only then, should you consider modifying your basic BP fuel. You should not even be considering adding Al, or anything else besides BP to fuel your rockets. Not at the beginning, for sure. Later on it's fine to experiment with fuel additives, after you've become an expert on all aspects of making and using your personal BP. Adding Al to your BP is absolutely not a smart fix, or the right approach, for repairing and speeding up shitty BP. FOCUS ON PURE HOT BP ONLY for now. It is a critical and essential skill in pyro because so much can be, and is, done with BP alone! Rockets, shells, stars, mines, comets, ground effects, mediocre salutes, all can be done with BP alone; BP is the foundation of pyro.

 

This site was born in the USA, and many of us are Americans, but we have many fellow pyros here from all over the world on this site--from all over Europe, South America, Australia... And all bring new and unique information and experience to the table. Ask questions (thoughtful questions), read a lot, and people will be happy to help you out. If you ask a generic "what do you use to lift your shell?" questions, they will be ignored or made fun of.

 

Again, before asking basic questions, you will get much more useful responses if you do some self-research before asking. Inexperienced is fine. Inexperienced and too damned lazy to do some background reading will not get good responses. Use the "search" function up at top right of the page. There are many, many threads here on BP, on making Al powder, building economical ball mills, making hard-to-get chemicals, building and troubleshooting all kinds of rockets, etc. If you haven't, go to YouTube and spend a few hours watching Ned Gorski's Fireworking101 tutorial videos. You will learn a lot!

 

Good luck. BP, my friend, is what you need to focus on. Not Al. Not yet. Unnecessary for now. Al and iron oxide, hmmm. Sounds like you have some plans for thermite, which is always fun! And easy. Al doesn't need to be dust to get a good thermite reaction.

Edited March 24, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[PHI]

You can probably burn the paint off of cans--unsure about the inner epoxy lining, or what effect that would have on the final product. Aluminum bars make great Al powder. How to sand them? Perhaps a diamond wheel would not admit much junk into your sanded Al, whereas with typical sand paper, you'd get more sand/other abrasive than Al, probably. It would be junk, I'd imagine. Plus, how do you plan to capture sanded aluminum--the stuff is airfloat (eventually) and you definitely do not want to breath that in. Use a mask, please, when working with powdered metals--they are not good for your lungs. Iron oxide is less of a problem--it's just rust, but you don't want to be breathing that in,either. Neither are "volatile", i.e., they do not evaporate. But finely powdered Al can easily float in the air for extended times, mostly invisible, while you unwittingly breath it in. Not good.

 

Ballmilling Al and safety (opening jar) largely depends on milling efficiency and size of your Al batch. A shitty mill might only need opening once/day in a rock tumbler. A strong mill with hard media and a large Al batch might need opening every couple of hours. It's empirical, but err on the side of caution. As always, use safety PPE gear. Glasses/leather gloves/long cotton sleeved shirts.

 

If you haven't perfected a hot black powder that should be your primary goal for making rockets. Leave the Al ideas alone. Al won't repair shitty BP, it'll just make it more dangerous in your case, and make your already unpredictable BP even more unpredictable. You CAN make good BP, maybe even without a ball-mill, though a home-made ball mill will make your life 1000x easier. Some people report hot BP from good starting ingredients, very fine, just by screen mixing. Others use the CIA (cold isopropyl alcohol) method, but I've never tried it, and it doesn't seem either pleasant or inexpensive to do. Meh.

 

In Europe you can find parts to make a homemade mill inexpensively. There are many tutorials here and elsewhere on how to build them properly. You absolutely need one, in my opinion, to make top-notch rocket fuel. Even a cheap rock tumbler works wonders compared to whatever you're doing now. That should be your goal--hot BP. Then, after you've CATO'd a few rockets with BP alone, and understand its nature, and only then, should you consider modifying your basic BP fuel. You should not even be considering adding Al, or anything else besides BP to fuel your rockets. Not at the beginning, for sure. Later on it's fine to experiment with fuel additives, after you've become an expert on all aspects of making and using your personal BP. Adding Al to your BP is absolutely not a smart fix, or the right approach, for repairing and speeding up shitty BP. FOCUS ON PURE HOT BP ONLY for now. It is a critical and essential skill in pyro because so much can be, and is, done with BP alone! Rockets, shells, stars, mines, comets, ground effects, mediocre salutes, all can be done with BP alone; BP is the foundation of pyro.

 

This site was born in the USA, and many of us are Americans, but we have many fellow pyros here from all over the world on this site--from all over Europe, South America, Australia... And all bring new and unique information and experience to the table. Ask questions (thoughtful questions), read a lot, and people will be happy to help you out. If you ask a generic "what do you use to lift your shell?" questions, they will be ignored or made fun of.

 

Again, before asking basic questions, you will get much more useful responses if you do some self-research before asking. Inexperienced is fine. Inexperienced and too damned lazy to do some background reading will not get good responses. Use the "search" function up at top right of the page. There are many, many threads here on BP, on making Al powder, building economical ball mills, making hard-to-get chemicals, building and troubleshooting all kinds of rockets, etc. If you haven't, go to YouTube and spend a few hours watching Ned Gorski's Fireworking101 tutorial videos. You will learn a lot!

 

Good luck. BP, my friend, is what you need to focus on. Not Al. Not yet. Unnecessary for now. Al and iron oxide, hmmm. Sounds like you have some plans for thermite, which is always fun! And easy. Al doesn't need to be dust to get a good thermite reaction.

Hello Friend,

 

The rocket engine was tested and works. (I have problems with the parachute ejection, but in a few weeks I hope to see my rocket fly

 

I use simple sweets, but I'm very curious and I'm planning another rocket with another fuel.

 

I am thinking that the best fuel for a solid rocket is ammonium perchlorate, silicone and aluminum powder. And I want to test if this compound will work with potassium perchlorate instead of ammonium perchlorate.

 

On termites, yes, I'm trying to test it, it's fun, but I'm more interested in checking if I can get a good iron and aluminum oxide powder (to be used in future in rocket fuel) but I'm going to cry, the termite doesn't it works, my iron oxide is very dark (not red) I mixed it once with aluminum powder (sanded with sandpaper) and it doesn't turn on (use magnesium tape).

 

Thanks

[SharkWhisperer]

Hello Friend,

 

The rocket engine was tested and works. (I have problems with the parachute ejection, but in a few weeks I hope to see my rocket fly

 

I use simple sweets, but I'm very curious and I'm planning another rocket with another fuel.

 

I am thinking that the best fuel for a solid rocket is ammonium perchlorate, silicone and aluminum powder. And I want to test if this compound will work with potassium perchlorate instead of ammonium perchlorate.

 

On termites, yes, I'm trying to test it, it's fun, but I'm more interested in checking if I can get a good iron and aluminum oxide powder (to be used in future in rocket fuel) but I'm going to cry, the termite doesn't it works, my iron oxide is very dark (not red) I mixed it once with aluminum powder (sanded with sandpaper) and it doesn't turn on (use magnesium tape).

 

Thanks

Hmmm...Pot perc and Al in silicone. That's essentially flash powder in silicone. Pot perc and Ammonium perc have entirely different characteristics as oxidizers. They are not really directly interchangeable for most things. Perhaps the burn will be dumbed down by the silicone binder fuel, but it is very likely to also CATO on you in a rocket format. I've made perc/Al/silicone/sulfur comps for uncontained amusement and for lighting difficult comps, and they burn brightly but at a moderate rate. A lotta fun in the campfire. Maybe they'd be useful rocket fuels if tweaked a bit. The silicone definitely mitigated the "flash" aspect of the mixture. Glad your sugar rockets fly. For an ejection charge, you might have an easier time just using good ol BP. It doesn't even have to be top quality, if it's just for ejection. "Termites" are little insects that eat wood and destroy houses. "Thermites" are another thing, hah ha. Your Al was maybe a bigger issue than your iron oxide--Al ground with sand paper is gonna have a lot of abrasive material included, and that might be what's stopping ignition. For rockets and BP, some of HCB's recent threads in the Rocketry forum might be useful. Though he has a decent shop and access to chems, his step-by-step approach was largely responsible for his successes. Stopping and identifying and then fixing a problem before continuing to the next step...

 

Good luck. Eye protection always, please.

[ronmoper76]

i make it with aluminum foil,tear a few boxes up into shreds with your hands,load ball mill and go to town. its very fluffy at first,gotta add aluminum every few hours till it all fits. i dont wanna give any more instructions from there but i could make about 3lbs in a week when i was actually doing it alot. Let it breath alot!!! good luck

[Bourbon]

Back in the day we used to preburn our AL foil to remove manufacturing agents. This in turn would break the foil down faster and help incorporate any carbon source you might be using.

 

I haven't made AL powder in 25 years, and most likely never again depending on regulations. But hey, If you're in an area you can't get what your looking for, a pyro gotta do what a pyro gotta do. PPE and more PPE and so on. Burp it like a baby.

[yardarmwheeze]

Open it, wearing full protective gear including a mask, over your goggles--you like your eyes, no?) every few hours.

 

Why the hell not just pay trivia vs what your labor/time inputs are and buy some hot Al if that's what you're after. Check Dixie.

 

Apologies if you're in a locale/country where that is just not possible.

 

Maybe check elementmaker's video on Al ?

Yes, it is easier to buy some Al, but there is a sense of accomplishment when something is made from scratch and it is of high quality.

 

Elementalmaker does have a good vid though.

[yardarmwheeze]

Hello my friend! Real dark German pyro grade aluminum is a bit pricey where I am. Also it is a fun little project. I did see Elemental Maker's video and it didn't seem very difficult to make small batches. Elemental Maker was a bit lax on safety though. You don't want that fine aluminum dust in your lungs without some kind of mask.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8_mo3at40M&t=605s

This video is more informative than elementalmaker's and he goes into further depth on the safety and processes.

Edited February 25, 2021 by yardarmwheeze

[SharkWhisperer]

Yes, it is easier to buy some Al, but there is a sense of accomplishment when something is made from scratch and it is of high quality.

 

Elementalmaker does have a good vid though.

The return on investment (time, mostly...lots of waiting time) coupled with the increased likelihood of starting a fire compared to most other pyro projects is very low. Great if you want to spend a month making a few ounces of mediocre Al powder, I guess, but I'd rather spend that time learning something a bit more complicated, and that provides a much greater sense of accomplishment, than spinning chopped up Al foil in a mill. Borrrrring...

[ronmoper76]

i agree. its cool to put in your time and patience and make something that turns out great. as i always say,i prefer mine over supply house bought particularly for making flash,it rocks and cant be compared, but nowadays when a guy has 10 or 15 lb of indian black head just lying on the shelf,i find there is no need for it really unless your just plain damn bored.Now i have another certain metal that i mill frequently because its almost $20 a lb to buy and i get huge bags of turnings for next to nothing that i grind right up into the same thing,but thats about it for me. heat and oxygen are both issues that need attended to

[yardarmwheeze]

The return on investment (time, mostly...lots of waiting time) coupled with the increased likelihood of starting a fire compared to most other pyro projects is very low. Great if you want to spend a month making a few ounces of mediocre Al powder, I guess, but I'd rather spend that time learning something a bit more complicated, and that provides a much greater sense of accomplishment, than spinning chopped up Al foil in a mill. Borrrrring...

Yes and no. You control your product at the end of the day. I am studying to be chemical engineer so processes and manufacturing are of interest to me. As a result I find it important to make sure that you have the highest quality products possible. I understand that there are more complicated and "interesting" things in the world of pyrotechnics, but often times homemade items surpass the quality of mass products products because you are able to give your product a higher degree of attention. But at the end of the day what you are interested in is what you are interested in and what I am interested in is what I am interested in. I take pleasure in devising new techniques in making the best chemical components for my pyrotechnic uses and you may be interested in other topics. Thats cool with me.

Edited February 26, 2021 by yardarmwheeze