Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 As you know red gum is quite expensive and Phenolic resin is fairly cheap. Can you replace red gum with Phenolic resin with the same percentages in Veline's star recipes? Do you just add the resin powder and wet them with rubbing alcohol and water similar to how you make dextrin stars?
Blackmach Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 You can replace it without problem, however, depending on the type of resin you use, the mixture can burn very quickly. You can keep dextrin and moisten with water / alcohol, but if you want to have a cleaner color, remove dextrin and moisten with alcohol. Cheers
GermanPyro Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 You can change red gum against phenolic resin in ratio RG 1 = PR 0,85 Phenolic resin have a higher fuel value. Use only plain alcohol, eliminate dextrin completely. Greetings
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 Ok. So I am planning on using this brand of Phenolic resin https://www.skylighter.com/products/phenolic-resin-1-lb?variant=9498661158956 So I just mix the resin powder in the composition without dextrin and moisten with alcohol? No water? 91% isopropyl alcohol will work?
Blackmach Posted December 13, 2019 Posted December 13, 2019 That's right, you must make sure that the resin used is soluble in alcohol, so moisten your fingers in alcohol and touch a small amount of resin, if your fingers become sticky it is soluble in alcohol. Isopropyl alcohol works well.
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 14, 2019 Posted December 14, 2019 And using no dextrin in the recipe although it calls for both red gum and dextrin won't harm it? I hear the Chinese use a lot of Phenolic resin are there any benefits? Thanks for taking your time with me btw!
Blackmach Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 (edited) For me, phenolic resin are all benefits compared to red gum. lowers the star ignition point, dries very quickly when using alcohol, offers extreme star hardness, is cheaper. In short, they are all advantages as long as you use a suitable resin because there are many types, I recommend that you use pure phenolic resin, if you use it treated with hexamine the star will burn super fast. Cheers. Edited December 15, 2019 by Blackmach
NeighborJ Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 What you say is all true but there are disadvantages. Phenolic can soften in high temp storage, like car trunks or shipping containers.The accelerated burn speed can be detrimental to some color spectrums due to high combustion temps. All said, it is still a good product.
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Hopefully the accelerated burn will be balanced out by the ratio GermanPyro stated. I hope it doesn't hurt the color too much as I have already commited.
Carbon796 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) Dex has about half the fuel value of red gum ( RG ) .48 iirc. It wouldn't hurt to adjust for that in phenolic resin ( PR ), if your going to leave the dex out. Color comps are usually formulated to have a negative oxygen balance. You can replace the RG with PR and still water bind with Dextrin or SGRS. Which I usually prefer for cutting and smaller pumped stars. I would suggest using denatured alcohol and not 91% iso. The only color PR might have a chance of disrupting would be blues. Which could easily be tuned cooler if need. Edited December 22, 2019 by Carbon796
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Ok so I'll keep the same dextrin ratios in accordance with 1 RG : 0.85 PR. Unfortunately I already bought a few liters of 91% iso so it will have to do for now. I will be syringe pumping my stars like I do tiger tail. Btw If the blue is disrupted, how would I tune it cooler?
NeighborJ Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Veline blue is a bit washed out to begin with but the phenolic only makes it slightly more so. Adding extra hexamine, stearin, or copper carbonate can help drive the temp down but again you need to weigh the cost of conducting experiments against what you already know will make a passable blue. Make the Veline blue with phenolic to get a baseline for comparison, then make a decision to either use another known comp just for that color or modify.
BetICouldMake1 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 I agree with J. The veline colors are all pretty washed out, but the blue is one of the worst. If you're just experimenting for fun then go for it, but if you want a decent blue you're better off with a different formula. There are a few that give good blues without using any overly expensive or hard to find chems. Hardt Sulfur Blue is my personal choice.
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 The veline colors will be my first colored stars as I am still a beginner, just practicing with small 2 inch ball shells. I chose Veline's system as it didn't require too many chems and the process was relatively simple. If the stars I make are like any shown in this video I think I will be satisfied. If any one should know any good blue star formulas that don't include any extra chems other than used by Mr. Veline (with the exception of Kn03 & Sulfur) I would greatly appreciate them.
NeighborJ Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) Hardt sulfur blue can be subbed for the chemicals you have on hand. KClO4-62, black copper oxide-12, sulfur-18, parlon-4, dextrin-4. The black copper oxide works well when subbed but burns faster than copper carbonate. Copper oxychloride is ideal but any of the three will work great. The dechlorane is more difficult to find but parlon works with only a little extra ash residue. Saran is most commonly subbed in as it's replacement because it creates the least ash. Edited December 23, 2019 by NeighborJ
Carbon796 Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 The hardt sulfur blue, will not be balanced with the other veline colors. It can be drowned out,if shot together with the veline system. The point of the veline colors is that they are balanced with each other, can be blended, and and use a pretty similar base. Without a myriad of different chemicals. As a newer builder don't be overly concerned with whether or not your making the ( best colors, which is subjective ). Just focus on learning/building, correct skills and successful projects. Building quality fireworks takes hands on repetitive building. To learn a skill set or technique and develop the proper feel for it.
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 Thank you so much for the recipe NeighborJ! Carbon7696 what do you mean drowned out if shot by the other colors? I couldn't combine veline colors and hardt sulfur blue in a shell? Or do you mean that I cannot combine them to make the other colors? If I intend to make the other colors in the veline system I will of course need to combine the veline blue not the hardt sulfur.
Carbon796 Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 Just that the hardt sulfur blue will look dim ( not balanced )compared to the veline colors. If used in the same shell.
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 Dang. Well that isn't good, I guess I will just have to hope that veline blue doesn't look too overwhelming washed out when I put them in the shells. I will still be pretty stoked when I make my first color shell in the next few days!
Guest PyroManiac1 Posted December 27, 2019 Posted December 27, 2019 Wow after some tests I just saw that Veline Green substituted with PR + same dextrin ratios and it was insanely bright and vibrant, not washed out at all, actually blinded me at first. Almost more of a darker green than what I saw in other videos. So far I love Phenolic Resin!
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