Getting a license fireworks

[lloyd]

Its construction would probably qualify as a type 4 outdoor magazine IF you have an adequate (and tamper-proof) means to secure it so that it cannot be moved by miscreants.

 

Lloyd

[jordanm]

I was thinking pouring a slab of concrete if i go ahead doing this and securing bolts in the concrete to be able to secure it to the slab.

[Sulphurstan]

Sorry to read that.

But if you were living in Europe, it would be even a worse nightmare 😬💩👎👊 etc.

[jordanm]

I received my inspection by the ATF agent out of Detroit yesterday. He was very happy with the construction of my magazine and had no questions about it. The only question that arose was my location. He came to the conclusion that it was too close to inhabited buildings since it was 137 feet away instead of 150 feet. We browsed the property and found a more suitable location for the magazine outdoors or in another shed further away from its current location. We also went over best practices for storage and some of the other laws in the orange book. He left yesterday issuing my permit and said that he would come back to qualify the magazine when I had relocated it. After browsing around the internet and gathering my evidence about distance tables applying to outdoor magazines only, I emailed him back and supplied the information to him. He then contacted a variance officer in Washington and discussed indoor type 4 magazines distance tables and the conclusion was that the TOD does not apply to indoor type 4 storage magazines. He had already taken pictures and all the details of where the magazine is currently located and stated that he will be able to qualify it in its current location. So in conclusion the inspection and qualification went very well and only took about an hour and I will now have my permit. I do have to say the inspector I got was very nice and he also agreed that the inspectors now a day are not as bad as they used to be. If anyone has any other questions about how the inspection went I will gladly answer them.

[lloyd]

Jordan,

Be grateful that the "new generation" of ATFE 'investigators' ARE, indeed, a very pleasant and competent crew. I've had bad experiences with a few of the "old generation", but the new guys are dedicated to ensuring the safety and compliance of an operation, instead of intentionally being the enemies of the people whom they inspect. It's been a whole change of mindset, and I've expressed my appreciation to them about it.

 

LLoyd

[jordanm]

Lloyd,

 

Yes i was quite surprised and pleased with the inspector i got. When he left he said he probably would not be back for three years when i would be renewing my license again.

[dynomike1]

The thing about it is in 3 years you will probably will get a different inspector. Around here that's every time. What happens if one inspector lets you by on something another might not. Then you are caught in a bind cause it's got to be fixed then or you might get shut down.

[lloyd]

The new breed of investigators is pretty uniform in their treatment of discrepancies. I think they're better-trained than the last generation, who were left up to their own discretion much of the time.

 

The new folks won't let anything 'slide' that isn't to code, but they're polite about it. Instead of just instantly shutting you down, they give you a reasonable time in which to fix it, then they re-inspect.

 

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

On a recent job at a govt run hospital we were having to have daily inspections on our work so we could place the areas receiving the rehab back into service ASAP. It was not uncommon to have an inspector on Wednesday to say the work approved by another inspector the previous day was not approved.

Though not applicable in this case, my solution was to have all of the inspectors to a lunch meeting (Steak paid for by the Boss) during which we hashed out the rules and regs to which I was expected to conform. We had another "meeting" before the top out and I had zero problems.

 

Now as I said, this has nothing to do with your dealings with the BATFE except this: Treating the govt agents as humans and maybe providing the same sustenance you'd offer a neighbor will never hurt and will ease the conversation on what is required and not just what can be gotten away with.

I actually learned some new codes that were to my and the company's advantage and was able to save enough to cover the Cheese's expenses for the lunch meetings. I can't recommend kindness and respect highly enough for treating with the people who oversee our hobby.

[bobd]

Lloyd and Pat:

You have it right!

Our last inspection was fraught, as the inspector admitted he knew nothing about fireworks, and most particularly amateur fireworks. He was, however, uniformly polite and trying to accommodate our strange situation. We finally got it worked out, but it took a *lot* of interaction. But he later told another inspectee that he had learned a great deal from an older couple in southern Colorado!

My (rambling) point is that we got through a difficult interaction by treating each other as decent human beings. We have also been told that it is a deliberate policy of the local BATFE office to assign different inspectors for each inspection. I suppose that is to head off any 'good old boy' sort of interactions.

So: treat 'em as you would be treated. If nothing else, you can feel good about it.

 

edit: I am really glad this thread actually turned out useful--it certainly did not start out that way!

Edited November 15, 2017 by bobd

[jordanm]

Lloyd and Pat:

You have it right!

Our last inspection was fraught, as the inspector admitted he knew nothing about fireworks, and most particularly amateur fireworks. He was, however, uniformly polite and trying to accommodate our strange situation. We finally got it worked out, but it took a *lot* of interaction. But he later told another inspectee that he had learned a great deal from an older couple in southern Colorado!

My (rambling) point is that we got through a difficult interaction by treating each other as decent human beings. We have also been told that it is a deliberate policy of the local BATFE office to assign different inspectors for each inspection. I suppose that is to head off any 'good old boy' sort of interactions.

So: treat 'em as you would be treated. If nothing else, you can feel good about it.

 

edit: I am really glad this thread actually turned out useful--it certainly did not start out that way!

Agreed!

[lloyd]

I may have told this before here, and if so, please forgive me.

 

Licensing my site in South Carolina was "interesting", to say the least.

 

I took my intentions to the ATFE office in Columbia, the capitol. There, I met an earnest but very young investigator. He politely looked through all my documents, then told me this:

 

1)There had never been a licensed manufacturing site in SC before. There were many class-C sellers and wholesalers, but zero manufacturers.

2)He, nor anyone in that office had ANY experience with fireworks manufacturing. They were primarily concerned with liquor, tobacco, and a few pit mines that used dynamite and AP gels... but no fireworks. Class-C was outside their venue, handled by the State Fire Marshal's office.

3)He ASKED me, if I might explain some of the issues.

 

So, he and I sat down for most of an hour, as I went through the Orange Book, explaining how the pertinent sections applied to my situation. He then thanked me, and said they'd get back to me after 'processing' that information.

 

About a month later, he called to say they were coming for a site inspection, and asked if I would mind their bringing-along some other people. Of course, I said, "Fine; thanks!"

 

About a week later, they came. He brought with him his own supervisor, the State Fire Marshal, the County Fire Chief, and a senior up-level ATFE investigator from Charlotte, NC!!!

 

She (the ATFE investigator) took charge. After some cordial greetings, her first words were, "Mr. Sponenburgh, we're here to review your site and application. But I can tell you right now that there is NO WAY we're possibly going to grant a license."

 

I was inwardly taken-aback by that, but kept my 'cool', and said, "Ok... I understand, but let me show you around."

 

Then we toured. For every single point, boundary, structure, etc., I quoted chapter-and-verse in the Orange book, and had a copy in my hand to show them the section when they questioned my statements.

 

We finished. She looked me straight in the eye and said, "Mr. Sponenburgh, I can't believe I am actually saying this, but I can find no reason to NOT grant your license. You'll hear from us soon." And two weeks later, I had the license in my hand!

 

The point of all that is to say it's important that YOU know more about your site than they do. Go in armed with THEIR information, and be armed to the hilt. Their job is to license sites in the absence of any disqualifying circumstances, not to deny licenses without cause.

 

Lloyd

Edited November 16, 2017 by lloyd

[Maserface]

What a delightful thread, I love when the 'hobbyist' prevails.

[AustralianPyromaniac]

That is one great story Lloyd! Thanks for sharing it!

 

Regards, AP

[jordanm]

Everybody i finally got around to filming the follow up video on what the inspector told me before he qualified my magazine as well as some helpful hints and tips for getting a type 4 indoor magazine approved.

[pyrofly]

Thanks Pyromaniac for posting that follow up video, it was really helpful. I may end up trying that same type of box as an outdoor, as I have plenty of space for that. Does anyone have a reference for the distance a magazine needs to be from the discharge site? I don't want to rule out being able to get permits later on if I want to do an actual display.

 

With a type 20 in oregon I should be able to test shells as a manufacturer (oregon doesn't require permits for manufacturer for experimental purposes 2015 ORS 480.120 section 1e). Edit: It seems the state fire martial has a different opinion, so I need to do a bunch more reading of OAR 837 and ORS 480.

Edited December 4, 2017 by pyrofly

[lloyd]

Pyromaniac,

After having viewed your video in its entirety, I believed it was 'important information' for other amateurs.

 

Without asking (I should have, sorry), I've told some others "around town" about the YouTube link. Every one who's watched it VERY MUCH appreciated your having posted it!

 

LLoyd

[jordanm]

Thank you Lloyd! That is completely fine and the reason i made it to answer the same questions i had when i was starting to get into this hobby. My goal was to display how easy and not expensive it really is to do things the right way. I was kind of surprised how little information in the way of tutorial videos there were on how to be legal.

[starxplor]

You mentioned the locking door of the shed as a bonus, I thought it was a requirement because the magazine its self is not secured?

[jordanm]

You mentioned the locking door of the shed as a bonus, I thought it was a requirement because the magazine its self is not secured?

The magazine is secured to the sub floor.

[starxplor]

Ahh, I do not have access under my shed, I will have to come up with another securing method. I am hoping to set up a magazine next year, also in MI.

[PeteyPyro]

Star, perhaps toggle bolts could be used for your wooden floor. They allow secure mounting through a blind hole, when no access is available under your floor. I'm not sure how large nor how many they require, in order to qualify your magazine as immovable. My floor is concrete, so I used 4 Redhead bolts, which use sideways compression to 'snug in' the bolts through the floor of the magazine, and into the slab. 3/8" very heavy duty toggle bolt link...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=heavy+duty+toggle+bolts&safe=active&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sa=X&biw=360&bih=559&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&tbm=shop&srpd=13791185701146131905&prds=epd:13487156676791043649,paur:ClkAsKraX78w_SOPQdwr_nx9oLrpymyE6IL1sW79Yz_ys0b00DI4WHmbXAnGyPLumx7d7vynBaDFevpkbo63jWd-XAhwpWB3st83UR0doKf_hb856ZV8p38X0BIZAFPVH72l56Ja5ZWi5cXsbg-kQlS4cLcOtQ,cdl:1,cid:12827259097101334341&ved=0ahUKEwjb76qm1vTXAhUGTSYKHS1yAZoQgTYI0AQ

 

Specs: 3/8"-16,2-1/4"l,pk2

(1)

Edited December 6, 2017 by PeteyPyro

[starxplor]

I had thought of toggle bolts, but as you said, I will have to find out what size are needed to qualify.