Getting a license fireworks

[lloyd]

I don't recall any particular limitations on the outer building construction for indoor magazines.

 

I've seen them put in metal lawn sheds, and still get passed on inspection.

 

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

The only specs I've read on indoor mags say it can't be in a residence and it should have mortise type locks. That's what I'll be aiming for if I ever get power to the doggone barn...

[dagabu]

Our inspector even encourages that flash shells be wirth all the color shells to meet the requirements. It's not a concern for the ATF and I don't believe it ever has been, it's more about the potential energy Within the magazine that they are concerned with and with the distance of specified in the orange book they are satisfied that nobody at the distances specified would be harmed if there was a definition of the magazine.

 

I don't believe that myself, I believe that you need more distance of the magazine to stay away from harm.

[pyrofly]

I have heard some people claim you have to only store shells in approved boxes and packaging. Does anyone know where in the regs require this? If I am making my own shells, specifically if I make a few salutes and mix them with more then 50% color shells to be on the safe side, who determines what the packaging is supposed to be? This is specifically for 1.3 storage regs, not transportation DOT stuff.

[lloyd]

Fly,

ANY shell made by an amateur becomes 1.3G NOS (not otherwise specified). So, you must store them in a proper magazine, regardless of their nature.

 

Some ATF investigators will tell you that only ONE color shell in a box of salutes constitutes 'mixed color and salutes', and meets their criteria for storage as 1.3G. OUR ATF investigators wish to see as many color shells (or more) than the number of salutes, in order to qualify as 'mixed'.

 

The safe choice is 50/50, because any investigator will accept that.

 

Lloyd

[pyrofly]

I am aware of that, but I have heard a few claim there are requirements to use specific boxes/packaging. I found labeling requirements, but not requirements for approved packaging for storage assuming the box is labeled correctly.

[lloyd]

Boxing and packaging standards are for shipping. The cartons you use in a magazine should be durable enough to withstand handling and the loads within, must be 'closable', and must be clearly labeled on the outside with the type of explosives (shells, rockets, etc), the quantity if they're 'unit items', the class (which will always be 1.3G-NOS for you) and the net explosive weight contained in the carton. For that purpose, ATF accepts 1/2 the gross weight for shells.

 

You do NOT need 'DOT-approved' cartons. That's only for shipping.

 

I was in charge of two magazine sites for over ten years. One had seven magazines with a net explosive weight of around 28,000lb (total), and the other had 14 conex-box magazines with a net explosive weight of about 120,000lb. Those boxing standards never raised an eyebrow. The only chaff we ever got was when a box wouldn't properly close, or was mis-labeled.

 

Lloyd

[rogeryermaw]

so shells stored in the magazine have to be in packaging and cannot be stored loose? were i to have, say, two 3" shells, they would have to be packaged and labelled to be approved?

[lloyd]

Roger,

 

That's sort of a "what they'll put up with" scenario. We had, in our magazines, hundreds of boxes of shells. But we also had some BIG shells (up to 16"), and they were all individually labeled as if a 'package', with the name/quantity/net explosive weight label stuck right on the shell.

 

Our ATF guys were OK with that.

 

Lloyd

[pyrofly]

Because of the class of license I am after, I need a type 2 magazine. The only high explosives I plan on dealing with are very small amounts of flash powder, nitrocellulose and other nitrated fiber/powder solids. From what I have gathered, if I am not able to determine the nitrogen content of my nitrated solids, then they end up being classed as high explosives. Even high explosive nitrocellulose though can be stored as a low explosive if it is wetted with water or alcohol based on a ruling I read. You still need the high explosive license to posses it though.

 

From reading subpart k, I can make a small box with 2+ inches of solid quality grade hardwood covered with metal and get it approved as a type 2 magazine.

 

The small size could be a problem for theft resistance though, do you think I would be able to get approval to store the type 2 magazine inside of a larger type 4 indoor job box type magazine?

 

Basically:

 

Small Type 2 magazine made of 2" hardwood covered in metal coated with non sparking paint.

 

Type 4 modified job box type magazine meeting locking requirements with the type 2 magazine placed inside.

 

Obviously the capacity of the two indoor magazines would be limited to match that of a single indoor magazine. I don't plan on storing binary explosives, so those distance requirements don't apply...

[lloyd]

Nope.

First of all, you don't want a "portable" magazine. Type 2 is considered portable. You need a type 4.

 

NC lint in quantities smaller than 50lb is considered 'propellants', and may be stored in a type 4. Besides... you do NOT want to store NC in any other condition than 'wetted' (or it will decompose rapidly), and when wetted, it's only considered a 'flammable solid'.

 

Don't make your life harder than it needs to be. Mix your salutes with shells. Place 'bulk' flash in baggies contained in shell casings (and add a fuse, if required to 'authenticate' the assembly), then mix those with color shells, also.

 

'Been doing this for a living for decades. Believe me when I say that ATF doesn't want to complicate their lives any more than they must. They're reasonable, knowledgeable folks, who will work with you at every turn. The last generation of "dictator" ATF agents went away 25 years ago.

 

Lloyd

Edited August 17, 2017 by lloyd

[pyrofly]

This blog mentions the possibility of getting a type 20 license with only type 4 storage to be able to purchase chemicals.

 

http://blog.skylighter.com/fireworks/2009/06/fireworking-safety-and-law.html

 

 

If I commit to:

 

Never storing bulk flash powder or bulk salutes

When purchasing small amounts of flash, complete the manufacture of salutes and package them with color shells in less then 24 hours.

Always store any nitrated cellulose in water.

 

Is it reasonable to expect to be able to acquire a type 20 license under these conditions?

 

I am pursuing the license primarily so that I can build and test some smokeless fireworks designs with future commercial potential.

Edited August 17, 2017 by pyrofly

[rogeryermaw]

thanks Lloyd. though this is not necessarily legality related, it may come in to play when passing inspection of a certified box with product inside. i build a lot of 3" shells so not so completely arbitrarily, we'll talk about 3" balls....heh. i recall earlier mention that if an inspector felt your products had been degraded by weather to the point of questionable safety, they could order controlled destruction of said items. i plan to keep all finished product sealed in zipper bags or at least some impermeable covering a can securely tie off. so. in a quart bag, with a 3" ball, approximately how mush silica gel would you place to protect from moisture in an environment like mine? roughly 2,693,427.9% humidity.

[pyrofly]

thanks Lloyd. though this is not necessarily legality related, it may come in to play when passing inspection of a certified box with product inside. i build a lot of 3" shells so not so completely arbitrarily, we'll talk about 3" balls....heh. i recall earlier mention that if an inspector felt your products had been degraded by weather to the point of questionable safety, they could order controlled destruction of said items. i plan to keep all finished product sealed in zipper bags or at least some impermeable covering a can securely tie off. so. in a quart bag, with a 3" ball, approximately how mush silica gel would you place to protect from moisture in an environment like mine? roughly 2,693,427.9% humidity.

 

That probably depends on the grade of moisture absorbed you use. In that case, I would get some silica gel packs that state what their capacity is. Take the volume of your bag and the maximum humidity and you should be able to calculate the capacity you need.

[lincishome]

Sorry guys im really new so be kind, im interested in learning how to make small but visually beautiful displays and the some of the chemical I want to order requires a ATF license now my question is, can a felon attain this license?

[lloyd]

There is no chemical that requires you have an ATF license to order or possess. You may not buy explosives without one, but chemicals carry no such restrictions.

 

That said, there are some chemical vendors who won't sell to anyone who doesn't have a license, but they're only playing "CYA"... it's not a requirement of law.

 

Third -- A convicted felon without ATFE 'forgiveness', may not possess an ATF license. However, the ATF does have a process whereby a felon can apply to have their licensing rights restored.

 

It's a fairly lengthy process -- I've seen it take more than three years for them to come to a decision, and they decide 'no' at least 50% of the time.

 

Lloyd

[chuckufarley]

Lloyd, are the authorities that slow in making a decision because their not very interested in helping felons get an explosive license, or is the investigation they do that thorough, and time consuming?

[lloyd]

Chuck,

I think it's a little of both. These days, they're under-staffed and stretched pretty thin out in the field. And it's the field investigators who must do all the face-to-face interviews of both the applicants and all their various character witnesses.

 

ATF gets enough 'business' just from doing inspections on valid license holders to not need any additional load, 50% of which turns out 'negative', anyway.

 

These days, though, that's not 'slow'! It's taking USDOT almost that long to process and approve simple EX# applications. They reject about 90% of them outright during their first two 'cycles' through the system (and usually for unfounded and improper reasons), and take anywhere up to three years to finally have them pass the same document you submitted the first time!

 

LLoyd

[dagabu]

I have to buy some land and make a magazine, my build buddy is no longer offering space so I have to start over again but this time, I will own the land, magazine and the building. I want to use 8x8 box culverts to make the magazine and cover it with dirt. A type 1 magazine sounds like the best bet.

 

I'll do my best to share the steps as they happen.

[NtzPrinter]

Well, after reading through a whole page of Money's attempted reasoning in trying to get around the law I really would have preferred to have read about some actual experiences folks have had while trying to enjoy our hobby legally. Thanks to Grandmaster & Pyrotechnician for their input on the matter. That helped. But I still need some real, factual input on what to expect if I were to submit an application for a permit to the ATF and what I may encounter from the State Fire Marshall's office. I've read the ATF Orange Book and the laws in Louisiana pertaining to what is and is not prohibited but I must admit it makes me feel like I'm opening a big can of worms. I really want to enjoy my hobby without the nagging worries of legal issues hanging around but I can't decide if I want to proceed only to later discover I've kicked a hornets nest.

 

Any input from fellow hobbyists who have been through the system and are licensed would be appreciated. Thanks.

[dagabu]

I'll walk you through my journey up here in Minnw-snow-ta if you like? I am working on getting property first, I need about 700 feet all around a Type 1 for 500 pounds of product if I want to store flash.

[lloyd]

OK...

 

My Florida licensing processes (at several sites) have been almost trivial, except for this last one I have. In this particular county, ATF was apparently aware that the county fire marshal wanted 'personal input' on whether such licenses were issued -- and it is in ATF's charter that they honor local government, and bow to their more-restrictive desires and ordinances, when such apply.

 

So, I had to go through a fairly lengthy process of pleading my case before the county fire marshal, and submitting my intentions before the county planning board, before ATF would even consider coming out to inspect.

 

I took it 'stepwise' -- first getting good-enough responses from the county folks to ensure I wasn't 'stepping on any toes', then (and only then) building my infrastructure. I had to get a letter signed by the county fire marshal indicating that he had no problems with my setting up a site, and present that to ATF with my federal application.

 

It was all 'accepted', finally, and only added about four or five weeks to the cycle of getting a new site licensed. But there were times, especially initially, when the locals weren't receptive. It took some cajoling on my part to get them to come-around.

 

On the other had, we wound up with such a good relationship that he asked me on the day of inspection whether or not I thought he ever needed to come out again. I told him, "No, ATF will be here two or three times a year, and if there's anything amiss, you'll be the first to be notified." He said, "Good", left, and has never re-inspected my site. But he has asked me twice to give seminars to some of his fire chiefs... so it's worked out especially good for all of us.

 

You need 1) To have a clean record. Any past felony convictions will scrub your chances. 2) To have adequate land so that all setbacks are met. And it's wise to have those setbacks to your property lines rather than only to neighbors' buildings and roads, lest they build something closer to you, and condemn the use of one of your structures. 3) A sign-off from the local AHJ, saying he/she has no objections. 4) Proper location for an assembly area.

 

The latter need not be a permanent building, so long as its location is permanently marked and the setbacks are adequate. At my South Carolina licensed site, my 'assembly building' was a tent I erected when I needed it. But the four corners were permanently marked with steel survey stakes, so that both I and ATF could clearly discern the location.

 

5) You must have a proper magazine. Technically, if you never stored anything, you wouldn't need one, but I don't know of any applicant who's applied for a manufacturing license who wasn't required to build one. Again, setbacks, et. al.

 

The modern breed of ATF investigators are not 'monsters' like a few old-school inspectors of the past were. They're over-worked, and NEED you to have all your ducks in a row before you waste their time to tell you that you haven't done your job. But beyond their insisting that you meet the letter of the law, they're usually friendly and reasonable folks. Work WITH them, and they'll help you get where you need to be.

 

Lloyd

Edited August 22, 2017 by lloyd

[starxplor]

Can #2 be negated with a small indoor type 4 magazine with low weight limit? Also, I think the original question was for a permit, not a license, and so a type 4 would cover the storage requirements?

[lloyd]

It's a common misunderstanding that somehow a type 4 (even a small indoor one) doesn't 'come up to snuff' for manufacturing.

 

In fact, your magazine types and sizes are dictated by the type of work and quantity of work you do, and how much/what you store. I am a 'full-up' manufacturer (commercially), and have a little 250lb (outdoor) type 4 as my only magazine. The reason is simple... I manufacture a few items for club meets, and build prototypes for other licensees -- always only in ones and twos.

 

ATFE has never so much as questioned why I don't have a larger magazine, or why I don't have a type 1 (HE). In fact, this is the third licensed site I've had in two states over the last 30 years, and I've never had anything but a single, small type 4.

 

Lloyd

Edited August 23, 2017 by lloyd

[starxplor]

It was my understanding that the building a type 4 is in does not have specific setback distances, other than not being attached to residential space, so #2 made me think you were not including type 4's.

Am I wrong in this understanding?