Moneytheman Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 So I live in lapeer Michigan its a place where they allow fireworks they do small shows on the 4th and people on the streets do em before the 4th like days before I wanted to get my license to do salutes not big ones just 2 inchers and 1.75 where would I go to sign up I know i would need somewhere to put em who would I have to talk to in my state or city to have permission
Mumbles Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Here's a brief overview. http://www.americanpyro.com/assets/docs/State_Laws/mi16.pdf Basically you need to talk to the State Fire Marshall, as well as looking up any local or county ordinances. Having a licence does not give you carte blanche authorization to fire off whatever you want. You'll still need to adhere to any ordinances, as well as set back distances, insurance, etc.
jordanm Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 I am in the process currently of obtaining my BATF license after many years of making fireworks legally in Michigan without storing them. By the sounds of it you are looking at just purchasing salutes and not in making them or any other shells correct? In this case you have to abide by all local laws, then all states laws and then all federal laws after that. My township that i live in does not have any local laws so they told me to just follow the state and federal laws. For the federal laws you will want to become very familiar with the ATF Orange Book at: https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/publication-federal-explosives-laws-and-regulations-atf-p-54007/download This contains the federal laws. Reading through this scared me away from obtaining my license for many years but now i am finally going through and doing it. You will need to make sure you have the means to store your fireworks in a proper storage magazine, whether it be yours or you have permission from someone else to use theirs close by. A Indoor Type 4 storage container can be used for Display Fireworks which can be easily made from a Ridgid Job Box, but if you plan on storing bulk salutes you will need a Type 1 or 2 storage container. "Bulk Salutes" are defined in a number of different ways and sometimes putting one display shell in a case of bulk salutes allows you to get around this and store them in a Type 4 storage container. You can shoot me a PM if you have any direct questions that you want answered from someone locally or continue to post here and the rest of the community will chime in as well. Welcome to the forum! PS: Mumbles I sent you a message yesterday.
Moneytheman Posted July 12, 2017 Author Posted July 12, 2017 Do i need insurance I ask to save money and I only plan on getting 1 box of 144 1.75 salutes I dont see why I would have to waste space and money for that 1 small item
jordanm Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 To shoot a display fireworks show most local counties require a display permit to be signed before hand, which usually they usually require insurance for. However, sometimes your simple homeowners insurance is enough to cover this. You sound alot like myself when i first got into this hobby and just wanted to add some bang to my shows but did not want to go through the hassle of obtaining a permit. What your going to find out is that it takes money either way in this hobby, even more so if you want to make your own product. DO NOT TRY TO MAKE YOUR OWN SALUTES! If you want to get into the hobby of making fireworks there are alot of great threads here that will introduce you to the art, but it takes alot of time to learn. After you got down making star filled shells and a few years of safety and experience under your belt, then it may be ok to make a salute. The simple answer to your question is that yes you will need storage for your shells in one way or another. You can try to convince the ATF agent that you plan to buy and shoot all of the shells in the same day, however their first question will be what if it rains. You have to have a storage container or a contingency plan to use someone elses. To make a type 4 storage container will cost you about $300 on the cheapest end. You can purchase this ridgid box:http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-32-in-x-19-in-Portable-Storage-Chest-32R-OS/300748555Buy Two 5 pin Masterlocks to fit it:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0143GP4BQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1And coat the inside with a spark free material like bed liner or you can use 1/2" plywood. This should pass through the ATFs inspection for a type 4 indoor magazine.
Moneytheman Posted July 12, 2017 Author Posted July 12, 2017 I dont want plan on a show or making my own just adding salutes like the small ones I said 1.75 1 box only I dont know how small the box is but its only 1 item is it a way they can see i only bought that instead and of wasting 300 for 1 small item to put it somewhere
jordanm Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 The simple fact is that you will not be able to buy them from a dealer without your ATF permit. To get your ATF permit you have to have storage. The only thing you can buy in the form of a salute would be a firecracker, anything larger than that requires you to get an ATF permit.
Mumbles Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 If you were able to buy and use them the same day, it negates the need to store them. You'd probably still need a permit and likely at least contingency storage to go along with that. Some suppliers will offer it for products you purchase from them. You'd still need to look into whether or not you'd need a display permit in your locality.
Moneytheman Posted July 12, 2017 Author Posted July 12, 2017 I know that jord I need one i still dont know why I need storage if I only have 1 box of 1.75 a box having 144 of em
lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Money, you're not doing any of your own research. Look up (first) the ATF regulations. You're not even allowed to possess commercial fireworks (other than 1.4G consumer goods) without an ATF license. In the case of salutes, if they aren't mixed with color shells, they're considered "bulk salutes", and MUST be stored in a suitable high explosives magazine on a licensed site, by an ATF licensee. You can make your own fireworks (including salutes) on your own property without an ATF license, if you have the legal setbacks to do it, and if your local laws and ordinances allow it. But even then, if you don't make them and shoot them the same day, then you MUST have a magazine suited to high-explosives for salutes (only) or 1.3G NOS (not otherwise specified) for fireworks other than salutes. And, if you make them yourself, and don't go through the two-year process with USDOT to obtain an EX number on them, then ANYTHING you make, right down to a sparkler, is considered at least 1.3G, and may be considered 'high explosives' (salutes). We're not 'inventing' obstructions for you, we're telling you what the laws are. I'm in the business. I have an ATF license. I've read and understood the regs many times. Get thee a copy of "The Orange Book", and memorize it cover-to-cover. LLoyd
Moneytheman Posted July 12, 2017 Author Posted July 12, 2017 Lloyd I just wanna be able to get salutes I understand its laws and I need a place to put em but I dont know why gota store 1 box
lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) "... I dont know why gota store 1 box"---------BECAUSE THEY ARE CLASSIFIED AS "HIGH EXPLOSIVES"!!!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't matter WHAT you 'personally feel' about them, they are a listed explosive, they are 'high explosive', and they are required by law to be stored properly in a high-explosives magazine. What about "it's the law" don't you get? For that matter, what about the FACT that they're 'commercial fireworks, and you can't buy them without an ATF license' don't you get? If you should buy any without a license, both you and the seller have committed a federal felony. I'm trying really hard to give you the information you need to stay out of prison. If you think it's stupid information, tell me, and I'll stop offering it. Lloyd (now in his 'abrasive' mode) Edited July 12, 2017 by lloyd 1
gregh Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Yeah Lloyd, I am not seeing the <grin> by your comments in this thread. Is there an annotation for a face palm?
lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 If I could show a palm-plant, I would! I don't mind folks asking questions, and don't mind answering them. But when it's "Federal Law" they're contesting, I suggest they go to "the source" (The Orange Book). Lloyd
Moneytheman Posted July 13, 2017 Author Posted July 13, 2017 I know they explosives all works is even the ones we can buy u know i know that I understand if I have a lot to store I need a place but for one small box I Dont understand I know that makes sense to u Lloyd thats like buying a fridge and only putting 4 things in it all the time a waste of money when could of bought a portable fridge
lloyd Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) You're still missing the point, Money! FEDERAL LAW says, if you have a box of salutes (no matter how small), you have to store them in a proper magazine -- and 'typed' (construction, setbacks, etc.) for THAT kind of explosive. It's not my opinion, and not even my choice -- it's the law! If you do otherwise, you're committing a deliberate violation of the federal explosives act as described in "The Orange Book". Get a copy and study it! They're free... just call ATF and ask for one. A deliberate violation of the explosives laws can be a felony crime. You need to educate yourself about it. Do what you want. What I've written obviously is having no effect on your opinion. Lloyd Edited July 13, 2017 by lloyd
Mumbles Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 Build a 1 cubic foot magazine if it makes you feel better about storage space.
Moneytheman Posted July 13, 2017 Author Posted July 13, 2017 See that makes sense mumbles I dont need to waste alot cash for a box that works for me
pyroman2498 Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) For Fucks sake go to a garage sale , buy a small job box, line it with wood to cover all the bare metal , get a small tiny shed to put it in , make your own lock cover (or buy one , i think thr proper name is a lock hood ?) and get a ATF approved lock (not that hard to find if you look into it ) . Put said job box into tiny shed (or a detached garage ) and there ya go , a cheap , small , easy to use magazine ... This was a very abridged tutorial, do a bit more research and contact the ATF about your concerns .... Edited July 13, 2017 by pyroman2498
braddsn Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 HAHAHA!!!! This is cracking me up. Money, you need to dig in and do some reading. 1.3 product is SO VERY restricted. They are, in essence, BOMBS... period. And that's how they are treated by the ATF, and the State fire marshal. On another note.... check this out guys..... I live in Illinois. I spent 2 hours with Wetzel (state fire marshal) last week, discussing how I am going to get legal for shooting 1.3. I was honest with him, and told him that I have been manufacturing 1.3 and shooting them on my property for 4 years. He told me that it was illegal. When I asked him why, he simply stated.. "In Illinois, if you have your Type 54, you may obtain 1.3 and store it... but the SECOND you fire it out of a mortar, in Illinois THAT is considered DISTRIBUTION". You are not allowed to distribute 1.3 product in Illinois without a STATE license. He was helpful, and explained everything very clearly. The unfortunate part about this, is that in the end, the state has dominion over your private property, and that sucks. In most other states, as long as you have your ATF license, you are good to go. To get an Illinois license, you must be an LLC, (a company), and you must show proof of insurance upon application. That insurance runs between 3,600 and 4,000 per year. That makes it too expensive for a lot of folks (including me). So the way to go, as I understand it, is to become an employee possessor (or "responsible person") for a company, and shoot under their ATF license and state license. Illinois makes it a nightmare to be a pyro. Uuugggghhhhh
starxplor Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 See that makes sense mumbles I dont need to waste alot cash for a box that works for me That small box still needs to meet ALL requirements for the storage type (I assume type 4). You should still read the orange book to understand what is needed to be legal. The reason the 300USD job box was listed is because it is convenient to modify to meet these rules. In terms of your fridge analogy, It is like having one fish you need to keep frozen. We might suggest a nice top loading freezer, but you would say it is too big and expensive. You could try to build your own smaller freezer, but that is not as convenient and in the end, may cost the same or even more. Additionally, most people who stay in this hobby end up scaling up at some point, so the job box conversion could be seen as an investment in the future. Finally, no matter if you make your own or convert a job box, you CANNOT store ONLY salutes in it. It doesn't matter if it is only one box, or even just 2 salutes left after your show.
Sparx88 Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Powder-Storage-Magazine-Type-4-Indoor/productinfo/1360001/
lloyd Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 "Finally, no matter if you make your own or convert a job box, you CANNOT store ONLY salutes in it. It doesn't matter if it is only one box, or even just 2 salutes left after your show."------------------Starxplor,That's correct, if that magazine is a type 4. You CAN store 'only salutes' (or any other HE component) in a properly-made and situated type 1 magazine. We had eight type 4 (conex type) magazines on our primary manufacturing site, with one solid concrete type 1. The type 4s could each hold 10000lb. The type 1 was limited to 250lb, in order to meet the setback requirements. Money, you reacted to Mumbles' suggestion of a tiny magazine as if everyone else has been telling you that you needed a 10x40 shipping container. Nobody - to my knowledge - ever mentioned a 'required size'. There is no size requirement on magazines. I once had one made from a discarded 100-gallon propane tank. LLoyd
jordanm Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 That small box still needs to meet ALL requirements for the storage type (I assume type 4). You should still read the orange book to understand what is needed to be legal. The reason the 300USD job box was listed is because it is convenient to modify to meet these rules. In terms of your fridge analogy, It is like having one fish you need to keep frozen. We might suggest a nice top loading freezer, but you would say it is too big and expensive. You could try to build your own smaller freezer, but that is not as convenient and in the end, may cost the same or even more. Additionally, most people who stay in this hobby end up scaling up at some point, so the job box conversion could be seen as an investment in the future. Finally, no matter if you make your own or convert a job box, you CANNOT store ONLY salutes in it. It doesn't matter if it is only one box, or even just 2 salutes left after your show.You hit the nail on the head and this was my thinking with suggesting a larger box. No one ever just stops at a couple shells, you always want more and will always need the room to expand. Keep in mind that for indoor type 4 you are limited to 50lbs of shells. Lloyd, what has been your experience with getting around the bulk salutes? Is it as simple as adding one color shell to a box of salutes to no longer be considered "bulk" or does this depend on your inspectors interpretation? Money, dont let us scare you away and start trying to do stuff the illegal way or start making salutes right off the bat because that is a sure way to get hurt. I know i was all about saving money when i got into this hobby and hence why i started making my own shells instead of purchasing a proper storage container. In the end i know ive spent alot more in making shells than the storage container would have cost right from the start to just purchase 1.3G shells. The bottom line is to acquire salutes you need your ATF license and the ATF requires you to have a proper storage container for these in the event that you cannot launch them the same day (in case it rains). The simplest option might be to check with some more local suppliers of 1.3G product in your area and see if they will allow you to use their storage as a contingency plan. This will meet the ATFs requirements and you should be able to obtain a permit as long as you pass everything else on the form.
lloyd Posted July 13, 2017 Posted July 13, 2017 "Lloyd, what has been your experience with getting around the bulk salutes? Is it as simple as adding one color shell to a box of salutes to no longer be considered "bulk" or does this depend on your inspectors interpretation?"------------------There's varying consensus about that among inspectors. I think the code says that any quantity of color shells 'mixed' with salutes makes them no-longer 'bulk salutes'. And I've heard from a number of folks who've gotten through inspections on that basis, with only one color shell in a box of straight salutes or chains. Our north-central Florida inspectors want to see something like a 50/50 packaging (by count, not size). We didn't really like the idea of repackaging ALL the salutes we had (hundreds of boxes). So, starting about 15 years ago, what we did at our remote storage site to solve that was to band-strap one box of color to one box of salutes, and call that a 'single carton of 1-gross mixed shells'. They were OK with that method, and we still use it today. Lloyd
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