Ball Milling -325 Atomized AL - Steel Media

[usapyro]

Just curious, anyone tried this with steel media? Make decent Dark AL or not?

 

I still love my Star Molecule, not sure what happened to them...

 

 

Btw, anyone else who reads this thread... Watch out for ball milled metals self-igniting when exposed to air. That's what happens when you create too much pure unoxidized metal surface area during milling in atmosphere where all the oxygen got used up.

[Mumbles]

You can't make real dark Al by just ball milling, so everything else is a little moot.

 

I'd suggest stainless steel media only. Aluminum and rusty iron really love to react when heated or slammed together.

[usapyro]

You can't make real dark Al by just ball milling, so everything else is a little moot.

 

I'd suggest stainless steel media only. Aluminum and rusty iron really love to react when heated or slammed together.

 

But, at least you can make real fine MgAl.

[insutama]

how it real dark aluminum made ? I have always bought mine pre made but always wondered how effective home made dark aluminum would be made with aluminum foil and airfloat charcoal ball milled for a week or so. Would dark aluminum this way be nearly as good as the real stuff ? Would it even work for kclo4/al flash ?

[usapyro]

how it real dark aluminum made ? I have always bought mine pre made but always wondered how effective home made dark aluminum would be made with aluminum foil and airfloat charcoal ball milled for a week or so. Would dark aluminum this way be nearly as good as the real stuff ? Would it even work for kclo4/al flash ?

 

If you can source magnesium and aluminum and look up how to safely melt and alloy those metals... You can make MgAl which breaks down easily (Even with a hammer) and can be ball milled with hard media into a metal powder more powerful than Al.

 

Tricky process due to the ultra fine metal powder needing slow introduction of oxygen in order to prevent the sudden oxidization of surfaces from generating too much heat causing ignition.

 

I look into this stuff mostly because I'm curious, and it's fun to experiment... And, also because in the future it will likely be necessary for hobbyists to DIY this kinda stuff. The kind of freedoms we have now may not exist in the future and we may go down the dark path of the EU.

 

If you can ball mill atomized Al into something at least 60% as good as Dark Al... That is really plenty good enough.

Edited July 7, 2017 by usapyro

[insutama]

Years back I ballmilled some magnesium powder for 4 days with a remote ballmill set up i only ballmilled 100g but the results were scary powerfull with kclo4 only mixed a gram of this flash up and id say it was at least twice as volitile as dark al flash. Do you think mgal would out perform straight mg?

[usapyro]

Years back I ballmilled some magnesium powder for 4 days with a remote ballmill set up i only ballmilled 100g but the results were scary powerfull with kclo4 only mixed a gram of this flash up and id say it was at least twice as volitile as dark al flash. Do you think mgal would out perform straight mg?

 

Holy sh*t... You ball milled 100g straight MG? That is crazy...

 

No, MgAl will not outperform MG, but is a lot safer to reduce to powder.

[insutama]

i used chrome plated steel media and i meant to say 10g sorry still have most of it left. I made maybe like .5 gram of flash with it and realized it was way to volatile for any use in pyro. When i put a glowing red hot cherry in a small pile of this it pretty much detonated there was quite a bang and thats with no containment. scary stuff.

 

I have the super ground up fine micron MG in storage in a small plastic container with a silica gel pack in it then thats inside a tote with a larger water absorbent container.

 

would there be any more precautions i should know about when storing this mesh of MG

[lloyd]

"Years back I ballmilled some magnesium powder for 4 days with a remote ballmill set up i only ballmilled 100g..."

------------------

Sigh... there's an old saying by George Santayana -- "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

I know you said, "years ago", but please don't repeat it, anyone. I long-ago published a short article on the dangers of magnesium powder. When very fine, it's even dangerous to aerate the powder, much-less MILL it!!!

 

Please, learn from others' mistakes instead of creating your own accidents, especially when the information is already out there to help you avoid them!!!

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/AFN%20burn%20article.pdf

 

Lloyd

Edited July 9, 2017 by lloyd

[NeighborJ]

I've found a form which will often need filled out after much of Lloyd's posts.

 

This form can be filled out and submitted to the APC public relations board.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost everything he says but not how he approaches these kinds of things. He's a good guy but damn he can be abrasive.

[insutama]

I've found a form which will often need filled out after much of Lloyd's posts.

 

This form can be filled out and submitted to the APC public relations board.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost everything he says but not how he approaches these kinds of things. He's a good guy but damn he can be abrasive.

lol thats funny

 

I get were lloyds coming from he has year of experience and has seen lots of bad stuff happen to with pyro and the amount of newbs that come on this forum myself included and ask questions that from his experience are dangerous. Like i said i did this years ago before i had the knowlage of this forum i would never do it again i was just posting my experience. So had i read that http://www.pyrobin.com/files/AFN%20burn%20article.pdf i would have never tried it. in the end im sure he just doesnt want to see someone making the same mistakes and getting hurt and giving pyro a bad name.

 

but yes i sure feel like a dummy somtimes after he puts me in place lol

[lloyd]

Neighbor,

I ASKED folks not to try something that's already injured me badly. I did not call anyone stupid, nor impugn anyone. I simply warned them.

 

if you consider that 'abrasive', I don't know how to take you. A helpful recommendation about SAFETY is not being abusive -- period.

 

Yes, I CAN be abrasive sometimes, because I have very little patience with folks who don't think first, then act. But this one wasn't one of those cases.

 

In the same vein, I might call you 'a jerk', for even taking it that way. But I won't.

 

And, Insutama; yes. Thank you. That was my intent (and, I think, the tenor of the post).

 

Lloyd

Edited July 9, 2017 by lloyd

[MrB]

I know you said, "years ago", but please don't repeat it, anyone. I long-ago published a short article on the dangers of magnesium powder. When very fine, it's even dangerous to aerate the powder, much-less MILL it!!!

 

Not that i'm going to start milling Mg anytime soon, but...

How about milling it in something like paraffin oil? Or linseed/thinner solution, effectively also coating it, making for a better shelf life? Just a little would keep it from aerating, and "a lot" should make it mill pretty much as normal, but slower. I think. Once milled it would have to be drained of the excess, and dried, but wouldn't it prevent the risk of explosion? It would of course still be a fire hazard, but the risk for life changing events should be a lot smaller.

[lloyd]

Mr. B,

Even milling it in an inert atmosphere would work fine (and N2 might not be 'inert' enough). I wasn't milling, only 'tumbling' it to mix it with a dilutent. It caught fire (exploded is the wrong word), and expelled all the contents into the air, where they all caught fire, causing that large fire plume.

 

The only problem I see with milling it (even with an 'oxygen excluding material') is the situation of eventually having to dispense and dry the material.

 

But my only intent was to warn folks against the danger of milling or mixing fine Mg powder in air.

 

This was the most-severe injury I've ever suffered from a pyro experience, and hope it remains the most-severe. My left arm is still damaged to such an extent that I must always protect it from the sun.

 

Lloyd

Edited July 9, 2017 by lloyd

[MrB]

Even milling it in an inert atmosphere would work fine (and N2 might not be 'inert' enough). I wasn't milling, only 'tumbling' it to mix it with a dilutent. It caught fire (exploded is the wrong word), and expelled all the contents into the air, where they all caught fire, causing that large fire plume.

 

The only problem I see with milling it (even with an 'oxygen excluding material') is the situation of eventually having to dispense and dry the material.

 

Milling it in an inert atmosphere still poses the problem when you introduce the oxygen, and have it oxidize it's surface. Milling it in the coating you intend to leave on it after milling is completed, should make it... well, safer. A mess regardless, for sure.

And yeah. A flash fire is creature not easily dealt with. I've only been around sawdust "explosions", cant say i'd like a similar reaction going on around my ball mill.

[Skysurfer]

I long-ago published a short article on the dangers of magnesium powder. When very fine, it's even dangerous to aerate the powder, much-less MILL it!!!

 

 

 

Reading through this... Something I've always been paranoid about is static made worse by working in electronics manufacturing and growing up around flour mills. Static is something to be aware of. Sliding Al or Mg around in non conductive PE or PVC can create quite a charge. Just like chemical combinations to avoid you should be at least familiar with is the triboelectric effect when deciding what materials to mill and what the mill parts are made of.

[lloyd]

Surfer,

Generally, static doesn't build up inside a mill jar when using pretty-much any media (even non-conducting ceramics), because the contents are continually mixing (no 'local' charges), and because it is a 'closed system'. The entire jar CAN develop a net charge relative to it's surroundings. But that can also be drained prior to opening it.

 

As far as all the other 'experts' who commented on it, my accident was caused by aeration of VERY fine Mg dust (sub 2u). That, alone, is known to cause fires (although I hadn't educated myself about that potential before I tried the experiment).

 

Lloyd

[Nessalco]

Personally, I leave milling metals to the folks who do it commercially. Like the klutz I am, I recently dropped a mill jar full of ceramic media and
MgAl that had been milling for about 10 hours. The impact from dropping the jar about 6" was enough to slam the media together and initiate a fire - blew the end of the mill jar off, made a heck of a bright flash, and scared the crap out of me.

 

Kevin

[WillowPineAndBoom]

I milling 350gr Mg 3 days now in ball milling 6" jar with 72 optimum rpm with half inch stainless steel balls media and i open it every 2 hours precise! The powder is begin to stick to the jar so i suppose it becomes ready to take it out! from 30 gramms pass inside from 325 mesh screen the 25 grams! And this procedure i make it over 20 time's to make mg dust. And my quastion is, why anything doesn't happen to me? Am i make it something wrong ? Maybe i got lucky over 20 time's? No. I JUST BE CAREFULLY WITH THIS DEMON! 1st when you milling a metal powder take precautions wich mean protective gear( welding rob, welding mask (electronic) firemen lether gloves) when you open the jar! !Every time! Second you only grinding with stainless steel ball bearing media wich is non sparking. Third the jar must be big to contains a lot of oxygen until you open it the next time avoiding exothermic reactions like go pyrophoric the powder when you open the jar and contacts with air ! And last more important thing you never ever milling in moisture Environments! Metal powders have the ability to be very "angry" with moisture and beginning to rusting rapidly and make exothermic reaction which means heat wich mean fire wich mean the hell it self! I hope i help sombody here! Lloyd can i ask you something? How you manage to get so much trouble Α guy like you with so much experience Have you ever wearing a protective gear when you are working in this stuff?

[Piccaso]

I read Lyolds account of his accident about a year ago and if I remember correctly he wasn't even close to the mill when it happened, thats how bad it was.

[rellim]

Is there any safety info on MgAl flash? I ground a gram or two of -200 +325 MgAl with a mortar and pestle until it all passed a 325 mesh screen. A sub-gram quantity of flash made with it burned with a really loud pop.

[Arthur]

So far I've seen no professional (Patents, Technical papers etc) discussion of methods of making fine metal powders, just guesses and assumptions -which all seem to be a bit lacking in hard data.

 

Much of the discussion of perc on here has cited patent data and papers from formal chemical societies, so the info contained is based on the best data available. Someone needs to do the literature research to see what if any is disclosed in patents for powdered metals BEFORE trying to test their health insurance by random experiment.