Zippers, Zips, Twister Stix, Speed Balls, Lil-kidz?

[yvanblo]

Hello everyone, first post here.

 

Have any of you tried to recreate these amazing little flying devices? Zippers, Zips, Twister Stix, Speed Balls, Lil-kidz, they are all amazing, noisy little things that zing up into the air (look them up on youtube if you have never seen them). I've made something similar in the past, but they have mostly just hummed and chirped. The factory ones are very loud, and spin at amazing speeds as they zing off into the air.

 

When using a real hot black powder, they hum and chirp. I don't want to use whistle mix, but I need to find a propellant that burns fast.

 

Alan Yates has a page that describes basically what I'm after, but his are much larger, and therefore make a lower tone hum/chirp.

 

Anyone have any fast composition they want to share with me? I don't have all the ingredients, but I have most of the common ones. I've not tried it, but what happens if you mix BP and a slow perchlorate flash?

[dynomike1]

You could probably use a hybrid mix but I don't know the ratio

[lloyd]

They're cored devices at the 'rocket' end, and plugged, usually with a different color, at the 'spin' end.

 

You don't need anything but an ordinary scratch-mix BP for the rocket part. Any good perchlorate star color will work fine for the spin/color end. It doesn't take a really 'hot' mix to make these things work.

 

I usually run the color down about 1/4-way down the core spindle, so that the color persists while the rocket portion is burning.

 

Lloyd

[yvanblo]

dynomike1, thanks, if you find a comp, let me know what it is, I'd love to try one.

 

Lloyd, thanks for the reply. It sounds like you have experience with these. I flew one yesterday, and it was lazy. Although, admittedly, I had some trouble with the nozzle and plug clay. I'm going to replace my nozzle clay and see what happens.

 

The last time these worked for me (a few years ago), I was using normal 75,15,10 BP. But the noise they made was pretty lazy as well. This year I took careful measurements of a twister stix, and made some tooling and jigs. I just completed the tools last night, so we'll see what happens when I get one made with new clay.

 

The factory ones scream, and I would love to replicate that sound. In your attempts, have you gotten that awesome screaming zing out of them?

[lloyd]

Yvan,

I won an FPAG 'small effects' competition one year with them. I made them approximately the same size as the commercial ones, because I liked the effect.

 

The next day, there were half-a-dozen folks investigating at our manufacturing tent, and proposing all sorts of different geometries and fuels.

 

One guy built and successfully launched one 8" long by 1" i.d.!!! <grin>

 

Lloyd

[yvanblo]

<grin> is right! I love fireworks!

 

Lloyd, it's an honor to be conversing with you. I've seen your name all over, and read a lot of your stuff. My buddy and I have been doing fireworks for quite a few years, and each year we get a little better. Of course, my fireworks are all relatively small since my budget is small. However, I get excited just thinking about fireworks. This year my focus is primarily fountains, rockets, wheels and spinning devices. These "lil zingers" put a huge grin on my face... though I assume the "lil zinger" that's 8" would do more than make me grin...

 

By the way, I made a pound of fairy fountain comp this year. I love it so much that it's going to be the backbone of my show this year. I just love it! I'm experimenting with ALL sorts of derivatives, including dropping small pieces of crackle between each increment. Or forming some with nozzles. Adding micro stars. I'm even going to put several on a wheel mounted horizontally 15 feet or so off the ground... I call it my spark dome since it should make a dome of sparks. The effect of the fairy composition is simply awesome, so thanks for sharing it with the world!

 

If you have any additional advice or notes on these 'lil zingers', please share them. Thanks again, I'll let you know how my testing goes once I get my new clay.

[lloyd]

Yvan,

Thank you for the cudos! I very much enjoy trying to advance amateur pyro. It's what got me into the business, and it's what pleases me the most.

 

It's really nice to hear you'r making the Fairy Fountain mix. Working on a movie set, you'd expect to hear a lot of 'jaded' attitudes... but even they liked it. Besides 'buttered popcorn' glitter, the Fairy Fountain has to be my favorite effect (it sure is my WIFE's, who doesn't like loud fireworks anymore. FWIW, she's shot a lot of big (theme park) shows with me, and she was a trooper... but we're both too old to work that circuit, anymore.)

 

Lloyd

[yvanblo]

And I thought I had all my comps mixed up for this year... now I'm quite curious about this 'buttered popcorn'... I just happen to have all the ingredients too. I'm assuming it's the standard mix up; screen, screen, screen, wet with enough water to hold it in a nice tight ball, then granulate and dry quickly?

 

I may have said it before, but, I love fireworks.

 

I'm going to make this comp 'site unseen' (tonight??). I'm not even going to look it up on the youtube Have you used the buttered popcorn in the same manner as fairy fountains? Or is it better as a star or comet?

[lloyd]

Oh... it's designed for comets and stars, Yvan! I made (really!) hundreds of thousands of crossettes and tens of thousands of solid comets from it. I've never tested it in a fountain or candle.

 

Don't granulate then dry. I used no more than 7% moisture, mixed and screened it well, then let it sit (damp, in a covered bucket) from six to 24 hours before pressing.

 

I've also rolled stars from it, but those were done with 'dry comp', not pre-moistened.

 

Lloyd

Edited June 26, 2017 by lloyd

[yvanblo]

Curiouser and curiouser... If you don't mind my asking, why "Don't granulate then dry."? ...starting to wonder if I should see what this stuff does before I go and make some...

[lloyd]

Yvan,

There's no benefit to pre-granulating and drying, at least for MY applications of Buttered Popcorn. I only, always, press it into comets or crossettes (or roll it from dry comp). If you've already dampened it, why wouldn't you go-ahead and just press it? If you dry it first, you'd require MUCH more pressure, and still might not obtain the level of compaction you would while it was still damp.

 

I just mix it, and store the finished powder DRY until I'm ready to use it. Then I moisten it and press it, or use the dry powder for rolling.

 

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

It can be dampened with alcohol and granulated through a kitchen strainer for soft grains to be used in saxons and gerbs. It looks very nice but not as good as it does when paired with some blue stars in a shell or mine!

[Mumbles]

I think buttered popcorn has a good shot at making a nice gerb. I would make it unchoked and see how that looks. You probably can drop the dextrin and press dry. The 5.5% dextrin in the formula is designed for comets or stars, and probably would make grains too hard to press/ram into a gerb. If you want to granulate before pressing, I'd do so without the dextrin or maybe 1% and dry quickly, but not with too much heat. Actually, you may want to try some granulated and some dry and see how they compare. I don't have a good feeling if there would be much difference.

 

There is another glitter I really like for gerbs (Winokur Silver C) that on a fundamental level isn't too dissimilar from Lloyd's formula which is why I think his would also work well.

 

Winokur Silver C:

 

KNO3 - 52

Antimony Trisulfide - 14

Barium Carbonate - 10

Charcoal, airfloat - 10

Sulfur - 7

Aluminum, atomized - 7

 

Alternatively you can replace the KNO3, C, and S for 69 parts of meal. With meal the burn is a bit faster, and the spray is a bit cleaner.

[yvanblo]

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I'll have to try making 'buttered popcorn' micro stars and adding them to my fairy fountains. Could be a really neat effect.

 

OldMarine, I like the mine idea. Thanks.

 

Mumbles, thanks for the tip on Winokur silver c. I'll try that one too.

[Mumbles]

I understand where you were going now. I think there was some confusion about your intent to use them as micro stars in a gerb vs. granulation for easier/cleaner ramming into a gerb. I agree that using glitter microstars might be a neat effect. You may find you need some prime on the microstars. This isn't necessarily for ignition, as much as it is a delay so the microstars are not consumed before they can be ejected. Good luck.

[lloyd]

Yeah... I didn't 'get' that, either. As micro-stars, they should be wet considerably more than 7%, and once granulated (I'd say through about 6-mesh), allowed to dry some, then gently 're-sifted' through the same mesh screen to eliminate 'doubles'. Then let them dry in VERY shallow layers on paper-lined trays (lest they all stick together) without disturbing, until fully dry.

 

Once dried completely, re-screen through the same mesh once more to gently to break up any clumps, then onto a finer screen (say 10-mesh) to get them all to a consistent size, eliminating fines. The fines may be re-classified, or simply re-processed in the next batch.

 

Mumbles' comment about priming is appropriate. If so, use a slow prime...(yeah... slower than glitter, or else, fairly thick!)

 

Lloyd

Edited June 27, 2017 by lloyd

[yvanblo]

There actually wasn't much to 'get'... I'm all over the place with this, and I do intend to implement "granulation for easier/cleaner ramming". I also intend to experiment with the composition and make many different devices, including, but not limited to; fountains, gerbs, water falls, micro stars, comets, and mines. I typically feel the need to see what something is capable of in all regards. I might even throw some in with something my buddy and I like to call scarabs... if you've seen the ladybug consumer firework, this is like that but about 30% bigger.

 

I appreciate all the helpful advice though, and I will put it to good use. I'll prime my micro stars. Though it might be a nice effect if they only last a few feet... who knows. Pyro is all about experimentation for me. And I really like to test things.

Edited June 27, 2017 by yvanblo

[yvanblo]

I had a pretty good launch tonight with my latest zinger (I only had time to make 1 today). It worked pretty well. Still a bit sluggish, but it had an ok zing sound. My BP is half willow half commercial air float... so it's not that hot. I need to make a pure willow batch. Need to find some willow around town...

[dynomike1]

dynomike1, thanks, if you find a comp, let me know what it is, I'd love to try one.

 

Lloyd, thanks for the reply. It sounds like you have experience with these. I flew one yesterday, and it was lazy. Although, admittedly, I had some trouble with the nozzle and plug clay. I'm going to replace my nozzle clay and see what happens.

 

The last time these worked for me (a few years ago), I was using normal 75,15,10 BP. But the noise they made was pretty lazy as well. This year I took careful measurements of a twister stix, and made some tooling and jigs. I just completed the tools last night, so we'll see what happens when I get one made with new clay.

 

The factory ones scream, and I would love to replicate that sound. In your attempts, have you gotten that awesome screaming zing out of them?

Try 80/20 BP/ Whistle. Look for Willow around water.

Edited June 27, 2017 by dynomike1

[lloyd]

Mike,

The sound from Zippers doesn't come from using a whistle mix, but from their rate of rotation. There's no reason why you couldn't use whistle in them, but it's not necessary in order to obtain their characteristic flight noise.

 

Hmmm... SOMEWHERE, I have the formulae I used for my competition zippers...

 

Ah... I used a simple Meal-D based silver star formula, slowed CONSIDERABLY by the addition of 20% Ba2C03, and simple perchlorate-based color comps for the 'look'.

 

silver, 1lb:

material grams lb. oz.

Meal-D 289.4 0 10

BaCO3 81.0 0 3

-40+80 Ti

sponge 62.2 0 2

Dextrin 21.0 0 1

 

Color Green

material

 

Chemical Name grams lb oz

Potassium Perchlorate 102.4 0 4

Barium Nitrate 194.7 0 7

Saran Resin 58.2 0 2

Red Gum 24.1 0 1

Charcoal - Air Float 10.0 0 0

Dextrin 32.1 0 1

MgAl -325mesh 26.1 0 1

Boric Acid +6.0 0 0

 

Water-moisten, pre-granulate and DRY both comps before use (pressing rockets, not comets).

 

AND, I mis-remembered the pressing sequence:

 

Using 1/2" i.d x 3"L gerb tubes....For a 33% cored rocket mold, the core pin should end up about 1" short of the top end of the tube. Increments are one tube i.d.

 

Press 1-1/3 increments of nozzle clay, 1-1/3 increments of color, then silver to about 1/2" above the core former (ends up about 5/16" short of the end, and then solid tail clay. Drill a 3/32" tangential nozzle hole just at the very top of the solid powder. Cap the nozzle with glued-on tissue paper or glassine (to protect against stray spark ignition).

 

The 'spinup' will be only with silver sparks, with the green tail showing on lift-off.

 

(N.B. -- The pound/ounces column rounds some small amounts to zero. Use the grams. That spreadsheet was designed for batches more like 15-50lb, not for 1lb amounts)

 

LS

Edited June 27, 2017 by lloyd

[yvanblo]

Lloyd,

Thanks for sharing this great information! I look forward to trying it out and seeing how it performs.

However... I'm unfamiliar with Ba2CO3... Bacon carbonate? And saran resin, is that an actual resin, or some sort of powder... Both of these are all but invisible on the internet. Na2CO3 yes, but not much info on Ba2CO3.

[lloyd]

Eh... that old formula is wrong... I'll correct it in the interest of 'precision'. It's BaCO3 (barium carbonate, a 'green' donor in the presence of a chlorine source, but an excellent way to slow BP formulae without discoloring the effect).

 

Saran (often DOW 506) is a fine powdered plastic, used as a chlorine donor.

 

Lloyd

[yvanblo]

I have some Barium carbonate laying around, and I figured that's what you were referring to, but you never know, I'm a little disappointed that you weren't referring to double bacon carbonte though. I have some parlon, and some PVC powder, think either would work in similar percentages?

 

I find it interesting that you have to slow down the BP... Not that I'm questioning your experience, but In my experiments, my burn rates have seemed kinda slow. I'm guessing that my nozzle and core need to be adjusted so that they are just large enough to release pressure, but not so large that it slows venting through the spin hole. In fact, I may need to have quite a lot of restriction in the nozzle so that it forces a large percentage of gas out the spin hole, thus increasing rotation speed and increasing zing volume. 'Zing volume' is the technical term, right?

 

I'm now wondering if my custom ~1/4 I.D. tubes are just a little too thin. Might have to beef up the spin hole, or roll some slightly thicker tubes... or I could step up to your 1/2x3 design. Probably both would be best.

 

Thanks for sticking with me and entertaining my over-active fireworks brain. I appreciate it. I've always held to the idea that the best way to learn is from someone who knows.

[lloyd]

Yvan,

I think Parlon should work about the same in that formula, though I've not tried it (in that formula), because I had a good deal on a bucket of old Dow 506.

 

On the 'speed of the powder' thing: I think you may have missed the fact that I'm using commercial Meal-D in that formula... not 'scratch mix'.

 

On this: "I may need to have quite a lot of restriction in the nozzle so that it forces a large percentage of gas out the spin hole, thus increasing rotation speed and increasing zing volume. 'Zing volume' is the technical term, right? "

 

No... the 'spinup' starts before the core ever ignites. The pressure change when the core becomes involved is sufficient to spin it up to 'zing' frequency, if you're using as hot of a propellant as mine. Don't miss that part about 'real' Meal-D.

 

I typically make all my clay nozzles to approximately 33% i.d. of the tube. In this case, it's not even a 'true' DeLaval... a tapered exit cone, yes (for ease of removal from the tool), but fairly a wide, curved angle... and just a 'flat back' on the inside.

 

Lloyd

Edited June 27, 2017 by lloyd

[yvanblo]

Ah, yes, I didn't pick up on the 'commercial' meal-d. How does commercial meal-d compare to a really hot willow batch that's been finely granulated?

 

Most likely I will never purchase black powder, so I'll have to settle for next best... or actually, I'll settle for whatever I can make without hours of effort and expensive equipment. I'm a lazy, poorly funded pyro. I typically mill by BP (homemade mill ~$10), wet it, and then granulate through a 8 or 10 mesh screen and dry it as quickly as I can. Seems to work pretty well. I think I probably won't need to slow mine down, and I'm assuming it's no where near the speed of what you were using.

 

I think we're saying basically the same thing regarding the spinup. When you say pressure change my mind tells me that the core burn quickly creates so much pressure that a fair amount of the pressure can't all escape the nozzle, so it escapes out the spin hole and that change quickly speeds up the rotational speed of the device which increases the 'zing' frequency. This is why I said the core should be just the right size to allow for that extra pressure. Perhaps I'm way off...