How to color a sugar fountain?

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hello.

I have done a beautiful and high fountain with the classical mixture of a sugar rocket: 65% Potassium Nitrate 35% Sucrose and 1% Red Iron Oxyde

I added 4% Titanium Sponge (450-1000). For my project 4% is perfect.

Here is the video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TskFig3ng9c

 

( sorry my american friends was really drunk as You can hear )

 

But I wish to add color to the fountain.

Since I prepare the compound dissolving the chems in distilled water and boiling them at 302F, I want to be sure

that the components will not badly react with the water at such temperature.

Any suggestion?

Edited June 17, 2017 by MinamotoKobayashi

[lloyd]

"Since I prepare the compound dissolving the chems in distilled water and boiling them at 302F, I want to be sure

that the components will not badly react with the water at such temperature.

Any suggestion?"

-------------

Sure. Look up the decomposition temperatures of the color donors you wish to use.

Lloyd

[NeighborJ]

Adding CaCO3 in varying amounts even without a Cl donor will create colors ranging from orange to almost red.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Thanks!

There is the possibility to create a blue or green flame without Cl donors?

I do not want to work with clorates and water, especially at 302F !!

[lloyd]

You don't need chlorates to act as chlorine donors. Saran and Parlon come to mind as suitable replacements. But look up their decomposition temperatures before trying them.

 

Lloyd

Edited June 17, 2017 by lloyd

[rogeryermaw]

Or, you know, just don't cook your rocket candy and press it as dry powders instead. it will work just as well and reduce your chances of accidental ignition tremendously. i've never been a big fan of cast r-candy anyway...possible cracking of the grain during cooling or storage can lead to an unintended explosion. stay safe

[NeighborJ]

The blue is a tough one, it is usually accomplished with oxidisers such as KCLO4 with chlorine donors or uses AP or chlorates none of these would be advisable to cook fuel with.

The green could be made by using barium nitrate with a chlorine donor but a respirator should be used while cooking to avoid barium poisoning. Strontium nitrate could be used with a donor for red. Sodium nitrate for yellow.

 

I don't know for certain but I suspect the sugar fuel will be counter productive when trying to make many of the colors. It most likely will produce washed out colors.

[lloyd]

I'm trying some "tough love" here, and TRYING to get him to do just a tiny bit of his own research.

 

It's valuable to have folks giving-out 'solutions', but it's of immense value to study the problem yourself.

 

He's not going to learn a whole-lot from others just giving him the solutions. "Help" is one thing -- but personal initiative is what teaches you most about any endeavor.

 

Lloyd

[MinamotoKobayashi]

To be honest, I'm scared to cook certain chems with water.

I always use protections, mask and filters, but I like to do only the things that I know well.

The only chem that seems to be stable and should not react with sugar, potassium nitrate, iron oxyde and distilled water is

CaCo3, as NeighborJ suggested.

His melting point is 1517F, enough to be safe

I will start with small amount of chems to value the safety and the final effect.

 

Rogeryermaw: dissolving, cooking and packing chems for sugar rockets while they are hot create a much powerful rocket.

 

From Wiki:

"There are a number of different methods for preparing a sugar-based rocket propellant. Other than dry compressed, all of these methods involve heating the propellant. These various methods include: dry compressed, dry heated, and dissolved and heated.

In dry compression, the sugar and potassium nitrate are individually ground as finely as possible, and then mixed in a ball mill or tumbler to ensure uniform mixing of the components. This mixture is then compressed into the motor tube, similar to a method for loading black powder. However, this method is rarely used for serious experiments, and careful safety considerations should be made before deciding to employ this method. There is a significant chance for self-ignition while mixing, which could lead to serious injury.

Another, more common and ironically more safe method of preparing a sugar-based rocket propellant is dry heating. First, the potassium nitrate is ground or milled to a fine powder, and then thoroughly mixed with powdered sugar which is then heated. This method does not actually melt the potassium nitrate, as the melting temperature of KNO₃ is 613 degrees Fahrenheit (= 323 degrees Celsius), but it melts the sugar and coats the grains of KNO₃ with the melted sugar. The melting process must be performed using a heat-spreader, so as to avoid creating autoignition hot-spots.

James Yawn, a well known amateur rocket experimentalist, advocates for the dissolving and heating method. Dissolving and heating the propellant actually dissolves both elements of the propellant and combines them. First, the KNO₃ and sugar are placed in a pot or saucepan. Then, just enough water is added to be able to completely dissolve the KNO₃ and the sugar. The mixture is then heated and brought to a boil until the water evaporates. The mixture will go through several stages, first boiling, then bubbling and spitting, then it will turn to a smooth creamy consistency. There are several advantages to dissolving the sugar and KNO₃ in water before heating. One advantage is that the KNO₃ and the sugar do not have to be finely powdered, because they both end up completely dissolved. This method of preparation also causes the resultant propellant to resist caramelization in the pot, giving more time to pack it into the motors."

At the beginning of my hobby I was really irresponsible and reckless.

The first time that I have melted chems for a rocket candy I destroyed 1/3 of my kitchen and suffered first/second burns degrees in one hand and in a leg.

Only for a fortuitous case I haven't lost an eye or suffered third degrees burns!

From this accident I have understand many things and now I act with the maximum safety applicable.

Thanks for the helps, guys!

Edited June 18, 2017 by MinamotoKobayashi

[lloyd]

"There is a significant chance for self-ignition while mixing, which could lead to serious injury..."

-------------

 

That's bullocks! As for Jimmy's "R-Candy" method. It works a treat. He and I are friends, and he attends a monthly rocket shoot less than a mile from my home. I frequently visit him there, just to keep the relationship. I was there a couple of months ago, and 'helped' (yeahl right!!) him put-together his new rocket for a high-class certification. It was a marvelous launch, and he got his cert'.

 

Lloyd

Edited June 17, 2017 by lloyd

[rogeryermaw]

The commercially available equipment most amateurs use for a heating solution is cheap off the shelf stuff with a high probability of failure. It's not worth it when the thermostat goes stupid and your heat runs out of control and you start a fire that puts your whole family at risk........ya no thanks. Besides, how much thrust do you really need for a fountain? The idea is for it NOT TO FLY OFF!!

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hi Rogeryermaw.

I thank You for Your advices, but I live alone, I have no family, only many beautiful exotic plants and one russian hamster

I do my experiments inside an half-abandoned hovel in the middle of the fields full of old peasant tools.

I wear glasses, thermal gloves and filtered mask.

Even if I jumped in the air, at most would take off a spit, a rake or a whip

Do not worry, I'm a skilled sugar rocketeer.

I know very well when the compound is near the auto-ignition: I recognise the smoke and the classic caramelization smell.

I have some scars on my skin that remind me of some important things everytime.

I use an electric plate at no more than 300F, a thick cast iron pot, I mix often the compound with a silicon spoon and

most of the time I use the mix wet.

The only "risky" time is when I pack the dried+melted compound inside the cardboard tube.

 

Usually I push the pressure inside the carboard tube near a CATO. Rarely the fountain explode, and when happens, is because too much Titanium flow thru

the nozzle all together, so the pressure inside rapidly increase, but usually I'm far away at least 20 meters from the fountain.

The hole is perfectly centered and I use a solid and stable basement.

Additionally I put over the basement a three kilograms tile to be sure that everything rest in place during the show.

This is a beautiful Titanium fountain that I ended some hours ago:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27318590@N08/34987137420/in/album-72157678182711451/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27318590@N08/35334872996/in/album-72157678182711451/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27318590@N08/34987136450/in/album-72157678182711451/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27318590@N08/35334872816/in/album-72157678182711451/

 

I have never neglected any detail, be it aesthetic or security

Edited June 18, 2017 by MinamotoKobayashi

[Arthur]

Look for the Veline system of colours, some of these could be simply changed to suit your compounding and making method. Blues are often hard to get right -even for skilled pyros, Even barium greens can have issues in regions of high -OH radical concentrations.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hi.

Nice system, indeed!

Unfortunately every color need potassium perchlorate, and I'm not able to found it!

Also I think that it isn't a good idea to boil a such dangerous chem ...

[NeighborJ]

Moto, I'm fairly certain that the veline system was meant to be a hint. It suggests a different fuel/binding method be used.

 

There are other formulas which use nitrates which should be more accessible to you but no-one uses sugar as the fuel/binder. If one should be willing to give it a chance then the experience and knowledge of this community would be better able to assist you in your goals.

 

Jason

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Don't worry, I will use the sugar system only for my rockets and for my Titanium fountains without colours.

I just ordered CaCo3 from Pyrogarage. It seems a safe chem to be dissolved with water/sucrose/potassium nitrate and red iron oxyde.

If I will be able to colour a sugar fountain with red/orange, I will be more than happy.

Otherwise I will abandon the project to colour my fountains.