FBpyro Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 I had the idea hit me yesterday, what if such a thing existed where an e-match could be set off by a previous lift charge(in a cake, or rack etc.). For simple shows and even more complex setups this would be great for people who do not wish to invest alot in a wireless firing system as your whole show could be sequenced one after another with just one fire command! Has anyone here already heard of such an idea? perhaps one of the top manufactures of e-match already make something out there?
lloyd Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Yeah... the system is called 'chains'. They can be nearly instantaneous, cue-to-cue, or timed; your choice. It uses a particular 'match' technology called "piped match and bucket timers". It's VERY inexpensive, and 'works good, too! LLoyd Edited June 16, 2017 by lloyd
Richtee Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) ..... oops..beat me to it heh please delete Edited June 16, 2017 by Richtee
OldMarine Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Last year I actually set off my last 2 pallets of cakes using QM with a section of time fuse spliced in and it worked great. I ran out of cues on my box and just happened t remember an article I'd read describing the process. I had a small section of time fuse that Marc had sent me as a freebie and it was just enough to give me the delay I was looking for. I plan on using it much more this year so I can save my cues for my own stuff! EDIT: Since I made my own quick match the cost was next to zero and the pop of the match let everyone know something was about to happen! Edited June 16, 2017 by OldMarine
lloyd Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Patrick,You'll be better-off by making "bucket timers" than to simply splice time fuse into QM. The buckets will allow easier tying-in, and will also help prevent pass-fires across the fuse elements. 'Buckets' are nothing-more than paper 'coupettes' (larger-diameter paper tubes, about 2" to 3" long, and about 2-turns of 30lb, pasted to secure) pre-tied (and glued, if you prefer) to both ends of each piece of pre-primed time fuse. TWO such buckets are tied onto opposite ends of each fuse, and separated by a goodly gap, so no fire can cross between buckets. In use, they're tied-in to that QM leader at both ends, but without any glue. That prevents 'blow-outs', making them more reliable. Pre-making the timers permits you to make-up a bunch of different timers for various purposes, and then just haul them out when you need them. I'd imagine you'll 'get' the design just from the description, but if not, we'll discuss it more. I (and my whole family; me, mom, Bern, and Erin) once tied over 10K EACH of 5-second, 4-second, 3-second, and 2-second bucket timers for a commercial display company. We were careful to "fluff out" every bucket, so that they were fully-open, and ready to just slip over some QM for tying. They used up a lot of space in the boxes -- only about 2000 per full 15x15x15 box. When we delivered them to the client, he was ecstatic! He'd never had timers delivered in that condition before. Most of his had 'shut' buckets, that required that they pry them open with an awl before they could be fit over the QM. Then, one of his female employees in one of the two assembly buildings decided they took up too much space. So she PRESSED them all HARD into as few boxes they'd fit into... crunching ALL the buckets completely shut! She also got fired that very day! <grin> Lloyd Edited June 16, 2017 by lloyd
lloyd Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) Exactly-so, Patrick. A really well-tied bucket timer won't pass-fire past the ties, even without any glue. But if you distrust your tying, a smear of white glue around where each bucket ties will add some insurance. We tied tens of thousands of them. Use a tying bench or a tying 'brake'. The knots must be SUPER tight. It's of help to pre-pleat the tied end of each bucket, too. (fold/press in halves at 90-degrees, then tuck-in the sides, and press again (and again at 90-degrees) so the end to be tied forms a 4-pointed 'star' with a small entrance) Lloyd Edited June 17, 2017 by lloyd 1
lloyd Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) PS... we made-up our buckets in 24" lengths with 1-1/2 to 2 turns of 30lb paper, pasted only at the last (say) 1/4" of the wrap, then cut them up into 2"-3" lengths after they were dry. Choose your length to make your tying easier. Paper is cheap. Also, you show the fuse being primed; good. But also bare at least 1/4" of the match when you tie in piped-match into a bucket, and make sure the bared ends actually touch the fuse ends. L Edited June 17, 2017 by lloyd 1
Arthur Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 We in the UK have Chinese delay lines, usually about six buckets in a line, some are 2 second delay some are 3 seconds. For those with access to 1/4" time fuse these are easy to replicate and can be to any chosen delay. Some UK (usually larger) cakes have an in and out fuse so the out can be connected to the next cake. 1
OldMarine Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 This method will actually work better with my homemade match pipe than with the commercial QM since my round pipe takes tying a lot better. Guess I'll need to get me some more time fuse!
FBpyro Posted June 18, 2017 Author Posted June 18, 2017 llyod, I know what your talking about but I was talking something that is exclusively electronic. Maybe something like an e-match with a piezo electric element on one end that generates enough of a current to set off the match head on the other end. It'd be hard to produce the voltage required for that and the impulse would be for a very short time. I don't have access to quick match so that's what gave me the idea for an electronic type solution.
lloyd Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) My point, FB, was that it's not an economic or a practical solution (more on that below). Piped match and timers are fast to make, VERY inexpensive, and perfectly-reliable if made well. I've shot shows with 1000 shells ALL timed in groups of from 10 to 40 with such timer chains. They're NOT as accurate as match-per-shell electronic firing -- but neither would such an 'impulse triggered' system be; because the force to trigger it would vary from gun-to-gun by several (maybe tens) of milliseconds. If you want 'free sequences' and cheaply, go with match chains. If you want precision cue-to-cue timing suitable to precision-cues for pyro-musicals, you must go match-per-shell. Any system that relied on the last lift to trigger the next would have variations in timing. Besides... what would happen to your sequence if a shell failed to lift? With that 'piezo' electro-mechanical scheme, one failed shell would condemn the whole sequence. At least, with timing chains, all you'd miss is the one shot, but the others would still go. I've done both styles. My first show was a small-town municipal show with about 500 shells, all timed with chains or manually lit. I did lots more like that, including barge shots off the rivers in north Florida, and 'trailer shows', pre-packed, loaded, and chained or matched before we ever left the factory, like at World Golf Village for the live ESPN TV broadcast of the PGA awards ceremony. (Greg Norman's helicopter landed right ON my shoot site! .. it left before we started shooting) Oh... BTW... THAT show was NOT timed NOR sequenced electronically, although it was fired electrically. The reason is that we had to shoot to the LYRICS of a live chorus and orchestra, and they varied their timing on every rehearsal performance! So I learned their whole repertoire, and we shot to VERBAL cues by radio by following-along with a script of the actual lyrics, and shooting to highlighted words, rather than to time! <grin> (and BTW... don't EVER shoot a show in full three-piece suit-and-tie, if you can avoid it! <BSEG>) My last three shows (in three days) at Busch Gardens in Williamsburg were each well-over 3000 shells, of which about 2K were match-per-shell cues. There's a heap of difference between just shooting stuff while music plays, and timing each shell burst so it hits right on-cue (about 50-80ms BEFORE the musical beat on which it is to 'appear', so it has a chance to open enough to be visible when the note happens). I'm bragging... I know.. (sorry), but it's to make my point about the methods. Of course, that's all my opinion. YMMV. Lloyd Edited June 18, 2017 by lloyd
Arthur Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 For fireworks to musical cues electric firing usually sync'd by a computer is almost essential at one igniter per firework. No two fireworks of the same name take the same time, I once pulled two finale cakes (Hercules in the UK) from the same UN box and there was a 20sec difference in the run time. For convenience of firing you could use a long length of visco branching to each firework to the end BUT this is totally dependant on the visco having a steady burn rate and each cake having it's specified run time.
MrB Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) MThere's a heap of difference between just shooting stuff while music plays, and timing each shell burst so it hits right on-cue (about 50-80ms BEFORE the musical beat on which it is to 'appear', so it has a chance to open enough to be visible when the note happens). I've sort of been wondering about that. How much of an offset one would need, to accurately "present" in time with the music. (50-80ms as per above) I assume there would be variations depending on what effect as well? Edited June 18, 2017 by MrB
lloyd Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) MrB,Yes, it can vary by effect. But so long as the shell has stars that are vividly-visible early in the break, 50-80ms burst-time before the musical cue is about right. Now, if it were one of those 'dark-opening' chrysanthemums, where the stars don't show until they've spread nearly full-diameter, then it's the appearance of the stars that becomes the visual cue, and you'd have pre-time the lift to have the stars show (again) about 50ms before the musical cue. That 50ms delay is about the minimum time it takes the human to visually recognize that an event has occurred (almost a 'frame refresh rate', if you will), while hearing seems to be almost 'real time'. There are those who will say that it's useless to attempt to time to that sort of accuracy, because the fireworks themselves aren't that accurately-timed. Well, yeah -- but we can TRY; huh? Besides, there are folks out there who can time that tightly (e.g. - take Disney, with their electronic shell fuses). Lloyd Edited June 18, 2017 by lloyd
Arthur Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 "Fire By Wire" firing system software pre-times each firework according to type and size so that the effect happens on cue, you can adjust pre-timing to allow for both sell delay and distance from the crowd -speed of sound vs speed of light- on the fly during a show
lloyd Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Arthur, ALL commercial firing systems that are accompanied by design software permit "pre-timing". It's a MUST on critical displays. I use ShowSim (by Kyle Kepley). It's the most-capable soft of a dozen-or-so I've reviewed for making really perfect shows. And, contrary to most softs that are compatible with only ONE firing system, ShowSim will output compatible files for dozens of systems. Lloyd
OldMarine Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Arthur, ALL commercial firing systems that are accompanied by design software permit "pre-timing". It's a MUST on critical displays. I use ShowSim (by Kyle Kepley). It's the most-capable soft of a dozen-or-so I've reviewed for making really perfect shows. And, contrary to most softs that are compatible with only ONE firing system, ShowSim will output compatible files for dozens of systems. LloydWow! I didn't know Kyle developed ShowSim. I'm in even bigger awe of him now. Fireworks to dirigibles...whoda thunk?
Recommended Posts