Should I see an improvement in my lift ?

[pyro5ive]

To make lift, I mill 75/15/10 meal plus a few grams of dextrin. I then wet the mix with about 20% by weight 50/50 isopropylwater and granulate through a 12 mesh screen.

 

If i want to make my lift more potent, can i screen in a small percentage of 70/30 dry whistle mix before I wet and granulate the mix ?

 

Im thinking after I do this, I can back down on the amount of lift I normally have to use. Please advise. Thanks, Steve

 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by pyro5ive

[Merlin]

Do not add 70/30!!!! If you have good BP nothing needs to be added. Don't screen with 12 mesh use 4 mesh. Also you don't need alcohol. Properly milled and granulated BP is plenty powerful for lift. You likely have a milling problem or maybe your using the wrong charcoal. Mine Mills in 3 hours with a 40 lb jar half full of lead turning at 55-60 rpm. I then dry over night in a drying box. If your going to do pyro you must make good BP. There are other comps that are more powerful but useless for any she'll over 3". Never add flash to your lift. You won't be around long enough to learn more.

[pyro5ive]

No, not adding flash to my lift. I used 40 grams of lift for my first 3" shells. They went high. I used a few grams less on the next set of 3" and they didnt go very high. I also think my lift might have been damp from sitting in humidity to long.

 

40 grams seems like a lot.

 

I noticed that a consumer shell will have about 10 grams lift. To make the consumer shell go just as high with my own lift, I have use about double, 20 grams.

[pyro5ive]

Do not add 70/30!!!! If you have good BP nothing needs to be added. Don't screen with 12 mesh use 4 mesh. Also you don't need alcohol. Properly milled and granulated BP is plenty powerful for lift. You likely have a milling problem or maybe your using the wrong charcoal. Mine Mills in 3 hours with a 40 lb jar half full of lead turning at 55-60 rpm. I then dry over night in a drying box. If your going to do pyro you must make good BP. There are other comps that are more powerful but useless for any she'll over 3". Never add flash to your lift. You won't be around long enough to learn more.

What is faster 12mesh vs 4mesh ? I thought smaller grains was faster.

[Merlin]

When your done granulation then you have to sieve the finished product through 4,6,12,20 mesh screens to get useful sizes. You want mostly 2FA and 4 FA. Don't just use whatever goes through the screen during granulation through a 4 mesh. You will have all kinds of particle sizes. They must be graded. You can use 2FA for 3" shells and 4FA for smaller ones. You can check out the easier and faster way to make Meal Coated Rice Hulls. MRCH. This can be used for any shells smaller than 8 " with limitations. You will have sparks you don't have with granulated.

You must mill it right and use a fast charcoal like willow or cedar. Airfloat will make slow BP! Fairly decent BP either granulated or MRCH will lift a 3" ball shell using 15 to 18 grams. I would suggest using baseball's in a 3" to test your BP. You can make a drying box with a old igloo cooler and a small CERAMIC heater. Dry overnight and store in a airtight container with desiccant.

[Arthur]

Get your BP right before you play with other things. The usual failure with BP is choosing the wrong wood for the charcoal. Look out the faster charcoals available in your area. Try young growth of Willow, Alder, Pawlonia, ERC etc

 

There are numerous tests for speed of BP most involve firing a ball from an upright mortar and timing the flight time, -You need space to fire a ball because it will come down somewhere!

[dynomike1]

28.4g should be at least a high 4sec. flight up. 3"

Edited April 24, 2017 by dynomike1

[FlaMtnBkr]

You can search for benzolift if you want to find out all the details on adding whistle to BP to make it more powerful. But it's really just a bandaid that is more expensive and exposes you to a more dangerous mix.

 

You would be better served to figure out your BP as it's needed a lot and should figure out how to make it correctly. It also can be really cheap which is nice once you start going thru a lot of it.

 

There are many threads giving details on making a quality product and trouble shooting most any problem. But if you are unsure then giving more details about your process will let us figure out your problem. If you are milling with a real mill with lead media then your charcoal type is the likely culprit.

 

You can use a 12 mesh screen just fine. But once dry it's best to use various screens to grade the BP by size. Using a bigger or smaller screen initially to granulate thru will just change what size most of your granules end up being. If making smaller shells like 3" there is nothing wrong using a 12 mesh screen which will make more of the smaller sizes.

 

You also don't need to use that much alcohol and it can even effect how well your dextrin binds your BP. If you want to use alcohol to help break surface tension so the liquid mixes in better and to slightly speed up drying then 25% alcohol is all you need and even that isn't necessary.

 

If you mill well, use good charcoal, and dry the BP quickly, you should end up with good BP that doesn't need help. But even if you need to use a little more it's likely cheaper and easier than adding whistle.

[dynomike1]

I didnt see what charcoal he used.

[Mumbles]

I use 4FA sized grains (-12+20) for 3" shells and under. Others in this thread have given good advice and things to think about with regards to charcoal, milling efficiency, and good drying practices.

 

Based on your description in post 3, the other thing I would think about is how well your shells fit in the gun and how confined the lift is. I've encountered more variability in 3" hemi sizes than any other diameter. Generally speaking the shell should be around 3x the nominal shell diameter, so 9" around in this case. This corresponds to approximately 5% gap. Too wide of a gap can lower the lift pressure and allow blowby of lift gases.

 

Similarly, you may want to try to confine the lift more if you are not already. Pasted patches of paper or tape, lift cups, or actual confinement of the charge can all help. I've noticed sort of a threshold critical mass, or more accurately critical pressure or confiment, for lift. Black powder burns faster under pressure, so now achieving enough chamber pressure under a shell can result in a poof instead of a bang basically. Fit of a shell and confinement of the lift can both affect this. I've actually experienced cases where I believe 20g vs 25g of lift was the difference between flopping a shell anemically out of a gun and putting it up to a safe height. Better lift confinement was the key to addressing this issue and helping to minimize it for my personal case.

[Merlin]

If it is taking 40 grams I bet it's commercial air float. If I were only using 3" and smaller and I only could get airfloat benzolift might be an option. However if one looks around enough white pine might be available from some vendors Or as I did in the beginning get some willow from custom charcoals. In the end build yourself a TLUD and make charcoal from ERC pet bedding. That's what I do and it works well. Once you get into pyro you will find you need a steady supply of good charcoal.

[pyro5ive]

I didnt see what charcoal he used.

mixed wood airfloat from skylighter.

[pyro5ive]

i just ordered the Paulownia air float from fireworkscookbook.com

 

I have been milling small batches with the rock tumbler from habor frieght.

 

Up until my last batch of mill, which i used for MCRH, i have not modified the rotation speed. I just rolled some thick tape around the main roller a few days. So now if i set it position just right and oil WD40 the bearings, I can archive about 90 rpm

Edited April 24, 2017 by pyro5ive

[pyro5ive]

I use 4FA sized grains (-12+20) for 3" shells and under. Others in this thread have given good advice and things to think about with regards to charcoal, milling efficiency, and good drying practices.

 

Based on your description in post 3, the other thing I would think about is how well your shells fit in the gun and how confined the lift is. I've encountered more variability in 3" hemi sizes than any other diameter. Generally speaking the shell should be around 3x the nominal shell diameter, so 9" around in this case. This corresponds to approximately 5% gap. Too wide of a gap can lower the lift pressure and allow blowby of lift gases.

 

Similarly, you may want to try to confine the lift more if you are not already. Pasted patches of paper or tape, lift cups, or actual confinement of the charge can all help. I've noticed sort of a threshold critical mass, or more accurately critical pressure or confiment, for lift. Black powder burns faster under pressure, so now achieving enough chamber pressure under a shell can result in a poof instead of a bang basically. Fit of a shell and confinement of the lift can both affect this. I've actually experienced cases where I believe 20g vs 25g of lift was the difference between flopping a shell anemically out of a gun and putting it up to a safe height. Better lift confinement was the key to addressing this issue and helping to minimize it for my personal case.

Yeah good point about the pressure that just escapes out of the gun. It has been a long time since then but Ive shot many shows before and that lift powder on this shellts seems powerful . I dont really remember how much gap there was the shell and mortar

[pyro5ive]

I wish i had the chance to weight a lift bag from a shell. Maybe this 4th I will get an opportunity

[Merlin]

mixed wood airfloat from skylighter.

[Merlin]

i just ordered the Paulownia air float from fireworkscookbook.com

 

You will see a marked improvement in your BP.

[pyro5ive]

i just ordered the Paulownia air float from fireworkscookbook.com

 

You will see a marked improvement in your BP.

Good. Ill leave the existing mixed hard wood charcoal for rocket and star formula.

 

Also, Should I use the same charcoal for primes too ?

[Merlin]

Also, Should I use the same charcoal for primes too ?

Yes. Use the airfloat for stars.

By the way that site you mentioned has some really good prices on chems and a huge variety.

Good price on charcoal as its a lot of work to make it and get it to airfloat.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Merlin

[pyro5ive]

Does hot composition mean that they are also fast and visa versa . Fast is hot and hot is fast ?

[OldMarine]

Yes hot means fast. Save your airfloat charcoal for charcoal compositions and scratch prime mixes and get a better coal for lift, burst and rocket fuel.

[Sparx88]

I vouch for the Royal Empress awsome-ness. It was easy for me to feel that way since I have 2 large 25 year old paulownias in back. Only ERC comes somewhat close to it that I used.

[braddsn]

Many charcoals, ERC, Paulownia, Pine, Poplar, Balsa, Black Willow, they all make fast bp. How it is cooked, milled, granulated, and dried is what we have control of. I have a large mill (Thumler's jar) that turns at 70 rpm's. There is a noticeable difference between milling for 2 hours, vs 4 hours. 4 hours in my mill, with ERC charcoal gives me plenty of power. Could I have faster bp? You bet.. if I used Paulownia and milled for 8 hours. But having the fastest bp is not nearly as important as being consistent with everything. Make every batch exactly the same, use the same methods, and make sure your final product is 100% dry. I can lift most 3" shells up to 350ft with 20g of lift, give or take. Good enough for me.

[Bigmark]

I second that on the Paulownia boy will you see a difference. And Fireworking cook book is a great place to get you chem's you just can't find

a better price. I leave out the dextrin and just use 70 % isopropyl alcohol to granulate and seems to work fine.