joncammarata Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) This video, https://youtu.be/DlsujECE89o, is a great guide for making Flash Cotton, Nitro-cellulose, Gun Cotton - whatever you want to call it. You can dissolve in acetone to make make a slightly more volatile lacquer than most other recipe's. It's great for smoke free Reports, also. Enjoy! Edited February 23, 2017 by joncammarata 1
memo Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) it may not be great it is pretty good. i used the same process and it worked fine Edited February 24, 2017 by memo
lloyd Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Tell me how long it lasts (before beginning to slightly yellow) in room-temperature storage, Memo. I'm betting such instructions won't include how to thoroughly neutralize the resultant NC. Lloyd
OldMarine Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 I've made NC before and even after multiple baking soda washes it still yellowed after only a week or so and tested slightly acidic. I was told I'd need to shred it into tiny pieces and use a stronger alkaline solution to get total neutralization. I gave it up after that.
taiwanluthiers Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Yea it would be dangerous if your composition went off because the NC decomposed... I mean I read ammo cache have been known to spontaneously explode due to NC decomposing. (I don't mean small arms ammo, I mean high explosive NC that has been nitrated higher) Edited February 25, 2017 by taiwanluthiers
Arthur Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 For what it is -a bit of quick fun- it works. What it ISN'T is a commercial method of making mil-spec product. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14102253 is a report of a cook off of major proportions -about 100 ISO containers full!- you wouldn't make that much without attracting the wrong kind of attention!
lloyd Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 "I mean high explosive NC that has been nitrated higher..."---------------Even high-nitration nitrocellulose is a deflagrating explosive, NOT a "high explosive". The problem with home-brew NC is that it involves a difficult and lengthy process to properly neutralize it after nitration. Even then, it will slowly decay when dry, (and even more-slowly wet, but even then). It's only when it's mixed with certain stabilizers that it becomes a suitable propellant for long-lived ammunition. LLoyd
DavidF Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 As I understand it, the higher the nitration level, the lower the stability. The stuff in the video was slow, IMO. Lloyd, I've always understood that highly nitrated cotton is a high explosive and can be detonated. I've 'done' it, but I will admit that it was soaked with methyl nitrate. I've kept home-brewed guncotton around for maybe a month before it started decomposing noticeably. But how does a guy keep it around that long even? The stuff is just so darned fun to play with!
Mumbles Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 Higher nitration NC is certainly a high explosive. It has a detonation velocity higher than TNT. Urbanski or Federov Will confirm this designation as well. The stuff from the video would not meet this qualification, but if done right it is. It's not always easy to get it to go off in it's natural fiber consistency. Once you get over 13% nitration or so, you can get it to detonate from impact tests without too much trouble if you want to prove it to yourself that it's truly an HE. The yellowing comes from residual acid and various other compounds. I've managed to make NC than was just as white as the day I made it 6 months later. It's doable, just not easy. After a thorough washing and neutralization, treatment with urea helps to destroy residual acid and nitrogen compounds that accelerate decomposition. Diphenylamine is sometimes added to commercial stuff to help stabilize. I forgot about a sample, or it never would have made it that long. Like David said, it's just too fun. I should also mention that while fun on a small scale, the nitration gets exponentially more dangerous on larger scales. Like scales that would be useful for us.
lloyd Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Higher nitration NC is certainly a high explosive. It has a detonation velocity higher than TNT.----Yeah... Opinions abound. But Hardt and the US military don't agree. Even high-nitration NC is processed on military ammunition facilities as if it were a deflagratory explosive. (I have spent a GREAT DEAL of time - years - in such facilities, so I'm not guessing what their opinion of it is...) Nitroglycerine is added to double-base powders to increase the combustion velocity. FWIW, the military's interpretation MIGHT consider the combined mass required with the velocity of the detonator, in order to cause it to go high-order. It will NOT do that (even contained) when ignited by just heat. Weirdly-enough, the US military considers black powder a high explosive (for processing/use setbacks)! Go fig'!! <grin> Lloyd Edited February 25, 2017 by lloyd
OldMarine Posted February 26, 2017 Posted February 26, 2017 Mumbles, is there an article you could point me toward regarding the use of urea to neutralize the residual acid? Several washes with baking soda and an 8 hour soak in the same didn't do the trick and as I said above I'd like to know how to make it if I needed to. All of the (understandable) info I've found just repeats the same process that I used before.
Mumbles Posted February 26, 2017 Posted February 26, 2017 This patent covers it somewhat. There is also some information scattered about ScienceMadness, which I believe is where I got the idea from the in the first place. There is at least a brief mention of it's use in Tenny L Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives. It's not perfect, but it can help. Very thorough washing is critical. https://www.google.com/patents/US605931
OldMarine Posted February 26, 2017 Posted February 26, 2017 Interesting, every failure he mentioned was the same as I experienced! If this was known since 1898 why the hell didn't someone pick up on it in YouTube yet!
Mumbles Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 It's been known in the home chemistry world for at least 10-15 years as well. Not exactly secret knowledge. Sometimes you just need to do your homework.
OldMarine Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 It's been known in the home chemistry world for at least 10-15 years as well. Not exactly secret knowledge. Sometimes you just need to do your homework. I was poking fun at myself for not researching further.
otto Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 I was poking fun at myself for not researching further.The problem with YouTube is at least 80% is total unsafe, unsubstantiated BS. Your only sin is in not digging deep enough and being selective enough. The truth is out there.....
OldMarine Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 I honestly haven't looked into it since my first try and there was no internet back then.
otto Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 I honestly haven't looked into it since my first try and there was no internet back then.Geez OM, how far back does that go? Heck fire, Al Gore only invented the Internet in, what, the late 90's..... I'm at least a beginners Old Guy and I can remember that. To your point though, there is mega crap ton of misinformation to wade through to get to the truth. That's why I like APC. Great info from folks that really do instead of parrot anything and everything on YouTube. Worth it's weight in lead media.... Hey, no disrespect intended. Just havin' a little fun. Heck, the web's only been around for maybe not quite 20 years. Drop in the bucket of knowledge. Thing is, it allows for folks to share like was never possible before. Gotta love it!
OldMarine Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 I was mainly pointing out the trust many people put in youtube without vetting the info first. You've got to wonder how many of those firework fail videos began with the poor schlub watching an "educational" video and taking it as gospel because "I seen it!"
EdM Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Can the urea neutralization technique be used on old material that is suspected of some decomposition? It's commercial flash cloth, about 10 years old, kept wet, with a slight yellow tinge.
wyzard10 Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 I use flash cotton in small quantities for halloween and a few other occasions in magic effects. You can get small quantities shipped to you wet without any problems. I also use it for making NC laquer and have had no issues with it. Fortunately im local to the place and can pick it up directly. For the price its alot less hassle than making it yourself.
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