dbooksta Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Having seen some uninspiring commercial implementations, I was thinking of building smoke grenades for use on paintball or airsoft courses. From what I can see all commercial smoke grenades use a friction-based pull-string igniter. Now I'm feeling nostalgic for the cases of shiny threaded military grenade fuse assemblies and wondering: Is there any legal peril in building such fuses, so long as they don't contain any HE compound (outside of the primer)? And if not, are there any such assemblies available on the civilian market? For non-explosive pyro devices it looks like a metal assembly incorporating a firearm primer and delay compound would be reusable, very robust, and very safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarine Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 There's a thread here somewhere on the subject. I don't think it got a good reception from the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrokid Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 To be sure, being confronted by authority figures regarding the possession of a number of grenade timing elements would be quite uncomfortable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) "Authorities" can make any confrontation uncomfortable, and if you made a list of pyro compounds and devices that would raise concerns with the public (e.g., black powder) or authorities (e.g., flash powder), I would think delay compound and firearm primers would be far down on the list. My approach has always been to (1) be safe, (2) comply with the letter of the law, and (3) don't contribute to something that's going to draw negative attention from the public or the authorities. From what law I do know, a pyro fuse like I described wouldn't cross any lines, but I've been surprised before. And building smoke grenades with reusable closed fuses like this seems, if anything, safer than the pull-string exposed-fuse devices sold in retail firework venues. But I'm open to persuasion to the contrary. Edited January 7, 2017 by dbooksta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Here in the US, a lot of law enforcement are trained to do the single compliance demand and shoot to eliminate the threat. This is a UN approved stance and the reason (I believe) that we in the US are having so many protests with BLM thinking they are being targeted. The truth (as I see it) is that 30 years ago, if you had a device that "could" be seen as an explosive, you may not even get a gun drawn on you, you may be able to explain it away and go one with your day after a a good tongue lashing. Now days, you get one demand for compliance and then deadly force can be used. Bottom line, don't even think about it, you WILL be arrested, you WILL be charged, with manufacturing an "Engine of Destruction" or something similar. Ask me why I know this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave321 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 see here,https://www.airsoftworld.net/tag-innovation-tag-67-airsoft-bb-shrapnel-grenade-single-grenade.html http://www.tlsfx.co.uk/shop-by-department/grenades/m10-ball-grenade-pea-filled if they are available in the uk, they must be available in the USA, surely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 I think this thread has gone off on a tangent. I'm not suggesting that anyone walk around with or "brandish" anything that appears to be a HE/frag grenade. Just as one should not kit up in their airsoft gear in a manner that menaces the public, or refuse to comply with the orders of an armed "official" just because one isn't actually carrying a weapon. Instead I'm asking if there are known sources for buying, or practical methods of constructing, grenade-like pyro fuse assemblies. My immediate interest being in building safe and reusable smoke grenades, for use in recreational scenarios in which smoke grenades are already employed. Note that any adult in almost any state can make or even mail-order, store, and transport all manner of visco fuses, electric matches, firearm primers, and non-HE pyro compounds. Furthermore, unless someone has specific knowledge to the contrary, a primer-triggered fuse assembly that contains no HE (outside of the primer) does not legally constitute a Destructive Device or a regulated Explosive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 see here,https://www.airsoftworld.net/tag-innovation-tag-67-airsoft-bb-shrapnel-grenade-single-grenade.html http://www.tlsfx.co.uk/shop-by-department/grenades/m10-ball-grenade-pea-filled if they are available in the uk, they must be available in the USA, surely Yes -- that! Very cool. Looks like such products are available in the US. Now to find stand-alone fuses for people who want to roll their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenlight Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I was trying to design a pull-pin initiation system for smoke grenades a couple years ago but never got to actually constructing one. I wouldn't try and use this on anything capable of damaging your hand/removing it for obvious reasons . The delay element could be a small diameter aluminum tube from a hobby store pressed with delay composition.The lever could be cut from thin sheet metal and annealed and bent into shape.Initiation could be by fitting the right diameter metal tube onto the delay tube to seat a 22. rimfire shell that has not been fired and the bullet and powder removed. The hardest part would be the striker and spring assembly but surely a hardware store equipment item would carry a similar spring that forces something closed fast (rat trap).Some welding would probably be required and I do not have a welder though so that why it never left the planning phase but it is definitely do-able. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenlight Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) I have a used M18 smoke grenade that was brought back from military if anyone needs close-up pics of the initiation system to base a homemade design on as well. Edited January 7, 2017 by greenlight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Ask me why I know this.... Ok, i'll bite.. Why DO you know this?Wasn't it enough that you got to spend weeks, months in burn-recovery, they had to charge you with stuff like this as well? On the topic of flash based pyrotechnics for paintball, or BB's... I'm not sure i would be comfortable with such a device in a "game". While they certainly are safe if you are at the limit of the distance from the blast radius, some 8-10 meters, sneaking it in close to someone, and having it go of, could actually cause some real damage.I don't like these.Smoke grenades is something somewhat different. Preferably lactose based variants, or other "safe" compositions that can be melted/compressed in to solids, with no, or at least very low risk of cato when used. Paper containers, waterglass treated, is still a bare minimum requirement, to keep shrapnel weight low, and fire-hazard to a minimum.Anyway, i think i would stick to friction based "pull" fuses, they are a lot cheaper to make, and less complicated. Regardless of what you decide to do dbooksta, good luck.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I love you B! No, 'they did NOT charge me with stuff like this as well', try spell check, B. I made it clear time and again that I was 100% legal and never even had an interview with the cops. "Pull fuses are the way to go". I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Spell check? I have problems putting your ridiculous language together to form proper sentences, but the spelling, should be, somewhat ok? I mean. All the text is red marked by my built in dictionary, that is how you know it's right, no? And yeah, i sort of wanted to remember that you didn't have those issues. So, how DO you know? If you'd like to share that anecdote?B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave321 Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Yes -- that! Very cool. Looks like such products are available in the US. Now to find stand-alone fuses for people who want to roll their own... yes, its far safer to buy them than make them and less hassle too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Spell check? I have problems putting your ridiculous language together to form proper sentences, but the spelling, should be, somewhat ok? I mean. All the text is red marked by my built in dictionary, that is how you know it's right, no? And yeah, i sort of wanted to remember that you didn't have those issues. So, how DO you know? If you'd like to share that anecdote?B!No doubt! English as the worst of all languages as far as I'm concerned yet it seems to be the universal language for finance across the world. I will be happy to share the story in a private message but because it has nothing to do with me, but a friend, I won't share it publicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Fundamentally, I agree that this shouldn't necessarily cause any issues with law enforcement agencies. I think we all know how easily things can go south though. Personally, I'd take the potential ambiguity out of it, and try to avoid directly copying the mechanism or design of a real grenade fuze. I was looking around for something like this, but couldn't find a whole lot of similar products. Most of the smoke grenades were friction fuses and the other things tended to be moving toward being operated off of 12g CO2 canisters for noise or minor projectiles. I'm sure there's more that I didn't come across though. Of the smoke grenades, many were available in what look like just cardboard tubes with discs or caps on the ends. Making a fuse assembly for this would probably be fine. I'd just avoid the screw in, exact replica, type of assembly that fits legitimate grenades. To me, this would go a long way to prove there's no nefarious purposes. Just my own personal feelings though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarine Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Mumbles, there was a thread on this subject in the latter half of last year but I'll be dogged if I can find it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I know this has come up before, but I couldn't find anything either. This was the only thing I could find, but it's about pull string ignitors. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/10031-wire-pull-ignition/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 I'd just avoid the screw in, exact replica, type of assembly that fits legitimate grenades. To me, this would go a long way to prove there's no nefarious purposes. ^ Yes, this! Thinking further there's no need to have a threaded assembly at all for a reusable smoke device (containing no explosive compound): Ideally it would be an integrated striker and pin-anchored cocking lever over an easily accessed primer pocket, built on a metal tube to hold the smoke compound, and a disposable base that pops off under very low pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsroom Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 This is what I think you would want. It is a straight up assembly that would fit a grenade. Any mods you need to do could be done on this to get the need time delay tube affixed. And if you wanted the only problem with this set up what be getting a spoon to fit. I found as many as you like for between 4 to about 8 dollars each. But I could be wrong and this is not what you need.............Pat P.S. if this would work try e-Bay under trip alarms 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsroom Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Oh! I forgot to added that they can use 209 primers so I think there would be a hot burn flash as needed to start a chain reaction..................Pat As for using homemade smoke bombs and the likes in paintball and air-soft games, I do believe it is the fields rules and regulation safety officer that has the say if they are safe and at what if any restrictions they have about them. Edited January 9, 2017 by patsroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPyro Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I'd personally go with a disposable configuration that uses a paper housing. Saves the trouble of recovering/cleaning/reloading re-usable fuzes. You have to keep in mind that pyro compounds generally have corrosive/hygroscopic burn products that will make quick work of springs and other steel parts unless cleaned throughly. I've had success with friction-pull fuzes that use a coiled wire. This is the same principle behind the fuzes used in the german stick grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarine Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 An ematch and spollette would work well. A simple 9v battery power source-hit the button, rip it loose and toss. The only scrap would be the little piece of wire.My 2¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave321 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 . I've had success with friction-pull fuzes that use a coiled wire.what composition did you use ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPyro Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I cheated, and used the white tips of strike-anywhere matches. A mixture of potassium chlorate and antimony trisulfide might work and is something I'd like to to try, although I'm not sure if it would be sensitive enough without a phosphorous compound. I've made matches with KCIO3/Sb2S3/PVA and they ignited easily on a phosphorus striker but not on cement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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