Fotia Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) Lloyd, what I was asking was did he bake "convert" the laundry starch before adding it to the slurry for the Q.M. or did he just mix it as is? And speaking of starches, I wonder if the ones used in beer making would have the same effect/benifit. Edited January 25, 2017 by Fotia
lloyd Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Fotia,If he did not bake it ('roast' it, as Mumbles properly said), it would NOT act as a binder, just a thickener IF the comp were a slurry (which it would not be, if pressing comets). Starch, by itself, is not a binder, period. I suspect the author did not roast the starch, and had a binding failure. If he did roast it, he owed the reader an accounting of it, and was remiss by not saying so. Some Italian formulae call for 'boiled paste' to make stars. High-gluten boiled flour pastes WILL bind powder well-enough to make them solid, but not as hard as I like to see them. Even then, I prefer dextrin to flour. Lloyd Edited January 26, 2017 by lloyd 1
DavidF Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 In the video concerning black match- the subject of the thread- Ned is using Argo laundry starch. He completely outlines the use of it. If it isn't considered a binder, then his match has no binder. He does not bake it at all. I would suggest that after watching the video, there shouldn't be any questions about starch, baking, dextrin, etc... I think it's wrong to discuss a resource without having taken the time to watch it in its entirety. I watched enough of it to figure out the point of confusion- failure to watch the video
OldMarine Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Many of the laundry starches are pre-cooked before re-pulverizing. I wonder if this would explain the difference in performance between laundry starch and "fresh" cornstarch? I know the gluten in SGRS is a factor in it's binding abilities but cornstarch lacks that component and needs to be converted to a sugar before it will bind.Just food for thought. I got the info from the Faultless starch website.
lloyd Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) "He completely outlines the use of it. If it isn't considered a binder, then his match has no binder. He does not bake it at all."------------ David,If I may (and I'm not trying to "pull rank"): I do this for a living. I've experimented with many, many pyro binders. Laundry starch is NOT 'raw' corn starch. Raw corn starch is useless as a binder OR as a "laundry starch". It's not even water-soluble! The best you can get is a 'suspension' of starch particulates in water. Laundry starch has been (as Boo said), pre-gelatinized (cooked). You need not to read more into things than what is said, and to research what's been said. Lloyd Edited January 26, 2017 by lloyd
wildcherryxoxo Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) I agree with Davidf, it appears that the blind are leading the blind in this case- Fotia didnt watch the whole video, asked for a point of clarification about the video, and Lloyd (who very clearly hadnt watched the video either) responded, out of context. Edited January 26, 2017 by wildcherryxoxo
OldMarine Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) I ain't Boo Lloyd. He's a fine fella but.... Fotia, apparently laundry starch is pre-cooked so performs as roasted dextrin would. Edited January 26, 2017 by OldMarine
lloyd Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 "it appears that the blind are leading the blind in this case-..."----------Yes, WildCherrry, you are! You didn't read _anything_ that was written. All you did was review the video. I didn't need to, because I'm a member on Ned's site, and have seen it several times! YOU "ma'am", are a complete fraud! Lloyd 1
Fotia Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Wow didn't mean to kick a hornet's nest. As I stated earlier, I did not watch the entire video. My only access to the Internet is my phone & an hour video would eat a lot of data. I was discussing this last evening with Calab as well & he suggested that next time I'm at a fast food restaurant, I use their wifi. Good idea, but most of the time I'm on the go or working at home. As I am typing this I am at the grocery store & when I get home I have to crank up the mill. The good that came out of all of this was some added info from Mumbles & others that may not have been given had I not asked. So just for clarification, the laundry starch IS precooked (tosted, baked) whatever from the manufacturer , making it thus a "dextrin" product?
lloyd Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Fotia,YOU didn't "kick up" anything. That abomination "WildCherry" did. We were just communicating what is fact. IT doesn't deal in facts. Lloyd 1
DavidF Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Lloyd, what I was asking was did he bake "convert" the laundry starch before adding it to the slurry for the Q.M. or did he just mix it as is?And speaking of starches, I wonder if the ones used in beer making would have the same effect/benifit.This is what I was responding to. The deviation from the subject of black match introduced the idea of dextrin, baking, etc...But THEN, I thought we went back to talking about match. And the answer to Fotia's question about that is in the video. Now, Fotia is still concerned about the laundry starch because he is thinking about the dextrin and the baking- both of which have nothing to do with the match video.Fotia: the Argo laundry starch in the video is good for making black match. Dextrin is also good for making black match. Dextrin is good for making stars. Argo laundry starch is not good for making stars. Cornstarch is not dextrin. Dextrin is not used in the video.
Fotia Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 This is what I was responding to. The deviation from the subject of black match introduced the idea of dextrin, baking, etc...But THEN, I thought we went back to talking about match. And the answer to Fotia's question about that is in the video. Now, Fotia is still concerned about the laundry starch because he is thinking about the dextrin and the baking- both of which have nothing to do with the match video.Fotia: the Argo laundry starch in the video is good for making black match. Dextrin is also good for making black match. Dextrin is good for making stars. Argo laundry starch is not good for making stars. Cornstarch is not dextrin. Dextrin is not used in the video. There was no deviation as the laundry starch was what was mentioned in the video at the very start. He was making comment about how much more flexible it made the match. What? Since when is dextrin not baked cornstarch?
lloyd Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 But David, at least tell him that the laundry starch is pre-gelatinized, lest he somehow mistake that it's just a "cornstarch suspension"! That's the real crux of this conversation. (And FWIW, Argo laundry starch CAN properly bind certain types of stars, like high charcoal-content 'streamers'.) Lloyd
lloyd Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Never mind. Ignore all I said, Fotia. WildCherry is the expert. I'm OUT of this conversation. I only do this for my livelihood (every day). I most CERTAINLY don't do it to argue with ignorant people! Lloyd 1
Fotia Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Lloyd, Just the other day had a guy who's never been a machinist tell me how to do my job of 18 1/2 years. 1
DavidF Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Well, I can see you guys just came to talk semantics, and not about a pyro need. I'll let you back to it and do something else.
wildcherryxoxo Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Sheesh! Being that I am an "it" (or woman, whichever Lloyd meant to be the worse insult), you'd expect ME to be the one with the out of control emotions! *shrug* Anyway, I'm glad we are back on track, "the starch" that is mentioned in the video is boiled, and probably pre-gelatinized, and it makes some damn fine black match. I am willing to bet it would work 'ok' in stars, but considering the extra effort in preparing it, I would lean on more traditional "dry" binders.
OldMarine Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Sheesh! Being that I am an "it" (or woman, whichever Lloyd meant to be the worse insult), you'd expect ME to be the one with the out of control emotions! *shrug* Anyway, I'm glad we are back on track, "the starch" that is mentioned in the video is boiled, and probably pre-gelatinized, and it makes some damn fine black match. I am willing to bet it would work 'ok' in stars, but considering the extra effort in preparing it, I would lean on more traditional "dry" binders.Nothing personal because you are only one among millions, but why are you a fucking asshole?
wildcherryxoxo Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Oldmarine- No offense taken (IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!) Just callin em like I see em, being politically correct isn't very high on my priority list.
MrB Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Nothing personal because you are only one among millions, but why are you a fucking asshole? Not to sure, but that is the general tone of the posts from this human being. If it was more active, i'd consider it a troll, but...B!
Ubehage Posted January 27, 2017 Author Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Don't let idiots drag you down to their level. They will beat you with experience.That's all I have to say. None mentioned, none forgotten. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all speak nicely to each other, and respect each others different experiences and the questions that emerge from that?And, of course, also respect the answers of more experienced people. Edited January 27, 2017 by Ubehage
calebkessinger Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 What the hell just happened. so..what again is the starch doing in the match? I'm confused clarity please.
starxplor Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 What the hell just happened. so..what again is the starch doing in the match? I'm confused clarity please. Having never made match myself, I was under the impression from other sources that it helped keep the slurry homogeneous while running the string through. This as opposed to the bp 'settling' causing wetter string with less bp a the end of the line compared to the beginning, breaking the cardinal rule of fireworking, 'consistency' Again, to clarify, this is not from any experimental or theoretical source, this is just what I have read others say (much like most of the info I get here).
DavidF Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Do you think the starch could replace dextrin in any formula?So, this is what I saw as the deviation from the subject at hand. The ensuing discussion seemed to be about binders in general, and not about match. There seemed to me to be much confusion on the part of Fotia about the starch. I felt that this confusion arose from the various pieces of extraneous information added afterward. I now have no idea what it is that Fotia is trying to get an answer to. Lloyd's mad, Wildcherry seems to be his reason for it, Caleb's confused, and I'm just a guy wondering why folks need to go to so much trouble to find things to disagree about. Is life too good that we need to turn over rocks to see what's underneath?Can anybody else comment on the use of ARGO laundry starch in the application depicted in the VIDEO from personal experience without talking about stars, baking, and other things that don't apply? 1
lloyd Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Caleb,The starch is the binder. Laundry starch is a converted food starch, not 'raw'. It is a weak but effective binder for things that don't require a lot of strength. David,Lloyd is not mad. I know where and when to 'waste' my time. Arguing with people about a simple matter that was explained no less than four times seems a fruitless endeavor. I have more than enough to do (yes, with pyro); burning effort and time reiterating simple facts to folks who know nothing of the art, but who still deny the facts isn't a productive use of my day. Lloyd Edited January 27, 2017 by lloyd 1
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