austar Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 Can anybody tell me if there is any real difference between agricultural kno3 to what one would buy through chemical suppliers? ??I have been buying small lots of kno3 through different suppliers but have recantly found a farm supplier that I can obtain 25kg for under $50, sure beats paying $14-$24kg from elsewhere.
Merlin Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 I can't answer as to the difference but I would expect technical grade to have less impurities. That said I have had good results with potassium nitrate front seedranch. A bit over $2 lb in quantity. It is Haifnia made in Israel.
OldMarine Posted October 22, 2016 Posted October 22, 2016 I'm sure the tech grade KNO3 is purer/better but the shipping kicks my ass. I get a 50lb bag of greenhouse grade from Kelp4Less for right at $75 delivered. I'm going to order 20lbs of tech stuff from Phil to compare.
austar Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 I am keen yo see the results old marine, bang for your buck is alwayz a hot topic. Is tech grade worth the extra money??Is the saving on buying agricultural grade really a saving.Does performance of one greatly out perform the other??All good questions.As I am getting more involved in this hobby, saving money is a big piroity. Lets face it, BP is the backbone of this hobby and the most commenly used substance.
OldMarine Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 I've been using greenhouse grade Haifa KNO3 since I've been in the hobby so it will be a learning experience for sure.
austar Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 Old marine, you obviously havent had any issues useing the agricultural grade, you seem to make good serviceable bp, lift and break charges.
OldMarine Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) I haven't built aerial shells, only rocket headings (The Dark SIde) so have only the baseball test for my powder. A half ounce of my powder gives me around a 6.8 second round trip with the GG KNO3 so I'm looking to improve that by a least half a second. Edited October 23, 2016 by OldMarine
Merlin Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) I generally get 11to 12 seconds on a baseball test using 25 grams BP. I think there is not much difference with the nitrate as far as BP goes. There is a huge difference in charcoal, milling, and granulation techniques not to mention drying and keeping it dry. Using 3 grams meal dust in a diagonal crease on a piece of copy paper you should get less than 0.4 sec burn time. Old Marine sounds like we are pretty close with our BP. The Haifna I have received is free flowing and about as fine as table salt. It us not lab grade but it does work quite well with willow or ERCMine said 99.7% kNO3 on the 50 lb bag. Edited October 23, 2016 by Merlin
chuckufarley Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Just to throw in my two cents here. I looked long and hard for kno3 locally due to shipping costs. I finally emailed Haifa and asked them for a list of dealers in my area. They were very helpful and gave me numerous options. I settled on a horticultural supply house not far from my house ( Milwaukee) that carried GG for $40 per 50# bag. The rep from Haifa said they could also supply the same place with the absolute grade if needed. They also gave me a list of a few industrial suppliers that dealt with technical grade products. While I haven't had a chance to test the GG stuff yet, the price is right and from what I read on here it can provide perfectly serviceable bp. I guess the point in my rambling is to talk to a sales rep, see what's available locally, then determine if absolute performance fits into your budget, or if it's more practical to just use a little more bp for lift, burst...etc 1
MrB Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 If your talking "performance", then there is absolutely no use for technical grade KNO3. The 99.99% pure stuff isn't robbing you of any performance. It may however be an issue if your working with nitrate based colors. Not really supposed to be an issue, but from what i've been told, the main contaminant is sodium salts... (Haven't had a sample analyzed, i'm going on what i've been told by the techsupport, or the product documentation.)The reality of it is that i'm referring to Yara's documentation, and you guys are using Halifa, or others, so if that is "less pure", or made differently, with different contaminants, you might end up with a different result.B!
austar Posted October 23, 2016 Author Posted October 23, 2016 If your talking "performance", then there is absolutely no use for technical grade KNO3. The 99.99% pure stuff isn't robbing you of any performance. It may however be an issue if your working with nitrate based colors. Not really supposed to be an issue, but from what i've been told, the main contaminant is sodium salts... (Haven't had a sample analyzed, i'm going on what i've been told by the techsupport, or the product documentation.)The reality of it is that i'm referring to Yara's documentation, and you guys are using Halifa, or others, so if that is "less pure", or made differently, with different contaminants, you might end up with a different result.B!My use of kno3 is pretty much only for bp for use in lift breaks and some coal streamer stars, so agricultural grade should be more than fine I am presuming
MrB Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Since it's a common complaint that it's next to impossible to make colorful fireworks without potassium perchlorate, which is getting more and more restricted, or even banned from use, or owning, i don't really think KNO3 impurities would be an issue to anyone.B!
Redrocketman Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 The main difference you have between lab grade & ag grade is approx 1.5% impurities, but the most important factor is PH. High quality lab grade kno3 will have a ph of 6 -7, agricultural grade will usually be around 8 -10. This does make a difference in burn rate, but can be tailored to suit using BR modifiers. I use ag grade 95%, only use good stuff if I'm running motor on limit with very high kn ratios. Get a more neutral burn, why I'm not yet quite sure!!! Price difference is astounding:Lab grade: $30AU per 3kgAg grade : $59AU per 25kgBIG difference!!!!
dynomike1 Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Old Marine i know you have a COOP up in La. Vergne. I get mine from them for $36.00@ 50#.
OldMarine Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 The co-op here only carries urea nitrate. I haven't checked LaVergne or Murfreesboro though. Thanks for the tip!
Col Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Yara seems pretty common in Oz, look for a local supplier that carries 25kg sacks of Krista K Plus.
chuckufarley Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 If you live in an area with a large farming industry, most feed stores will carry kno3. They usually don't advertise, and they might not all do off the street, or single bag sales but it doesn't hurt to ask.
OldMarine Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Mostly we just grow corn and soybeans around here with the beans planted as an undercrop for the corn. Not much need of added nitrates but the counties south of me grow cotton which does need plenty of added nitrogen.
chuckufarley Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 I also understand tobbacco is a nitrogen hungry crop
OldMarine Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) Tobacco was a huge crop here until recently. I only know of 2 growers now and they have dedicated buyers. There used to be hundreds of plots around the area. Rather tangential to the subject but I've noted that many of the former tobacco growers have switched to cabbage, kale and other forms of brassica. I guess there's bucks in health food like any other! Edited October 23, 2016 by OldMarine
chuckufarley Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Organic anything seems to be a good bet right now. During my reasearch for "alternate uses" of kno3 it seems that those green leafy vegetables, like kale, and other lettuces are big consumers of nitrogen and potassium. Something to keep in mind if your suppliers start asking questions about your need for kno3.
Wiley Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Using 3 grams meal dust in a diagonal crease on a piece of copy paper you should get less than 0.4 sec burn time. Hmm, where have I heard that before? The way I've done it is to lay the powder diagonally on a flat sheet of A4 copy paper. I would imagine that creasing the paper could alter the apparent burn rate, and in any event, it might be difficult to reproduce the crease exactly from test to test. I don't really use that test much anymore, since it doesn't test the fully-processed product, but it can give a sort of guess as to what you have before granulation. If you do this test, and you're using a fuse to ignite the powder train, ensure that the business end of the fuse is secured except for the last 1/16" or so. Leaving a longer piece free on the end can cause it to fly forward and ignite the powder somewhere other than at one end. Another variable is wind. If the wind blows counter to the direction of flame propagation, the apparent burn rate decreases, and vice versa. Relative humidity can also measurably affect burn rate.Just some tips to keep in mind.
Merlin Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Hmm, where have I heard that before? The way I've done it is to lay the powder diagonally on a flat sheet of A4 copy paper. I would imagine that creasing the paper could alter the apparent burn rate, and in any event, it might be difficult to reproduce the crease exactly from test to test. Wiley what you say is true. It is a subjective test but useful if you are just beginning to mill BP. If you don't get a decent burn rate it is likely under milled. I don't use it unless I change nitrate or charcoal. It is best to video the burn to get a precise time within the limits of the test. 1
Merlin Posted October 23, 2016 Posted October 23, 2016 Since it's a common complaint that it's next to impossible to make colorful fireworks without potassium perchlorate, which is getting more and more restricted, or even banned from use, or owning, i don't really think KNO3 impurities would be an issue to anyone.B!What do you mean in regard to restrictions on perc? I know some suppliers have restrictions on some aluminum but I haven't heard about perc. Of course Firefox restricts just about everything!
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