Trouble with rolling Winokur 37

[Merlin]

One problem is you are limited as to how much water you can use so next attempt I will press. But my question is about sulfur. I screened and mixed the dry comp until homogeneous. During the rolling (wetting) process I noticed specks of what appeared to be sulfur appear from the comp. why could this have happened?

[AzoMittle]

One problem is you are limited as to how much water you can use so next attempt I will press. But my question is about sulfur. I screened and mixed the dry comp until homogeneous. During the rolling (wetting) process I noticed specks of what appeared to be sulfur appear from the comp. why could this have happened?

 

What mesh did you screen it through? Did you ballmill the comp first (minus the metal of course)?

[Merlin]

 

What mesh did you screen it through? Did you ballmill the comp first (minus the metal of course)?

Ground sulfur and barium nitrate with mortar and pestle since they had clumps. The pot nitrate was free flowing and fine. Used 20 mesh to screen mix then shook the comp in gallon ziplock. It appeared homogeneous. I did not ball mill because I was under the impression you don't ball mill glitters.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Merlin

[AzoMittle]

Ground sulfur and barium nitrate with mortar and pestle since they had clumps. The pot nitrate was free flowing and fine. Used 20 mesh to screen mix then shook the comp in gallon ziplock. It appeared homogeneous. I did not ball mill because I was under the impression you don't ball mill glitters.

 

You're correct, glitters are generally only screened not ballmilled because it will cause them to burn quicker and have less of a 'glitter' effect. I figured I would ask though. FWIW I do ballmill mine briefly (really more of a "tumble mix") because I don't care for screen mixing, I've done both though with equitable results. 20 Mesh is pretty darn coarse, maybe switch to a finer mesh if you can, and screen it several times. I know you said it was homogeneous but if you are getting sulfur clumps they were there to begin with, they don't magically form during rolling. Looks are deceiving, trust your intuition and process and not your eyes.

 

What binder are you using? I've found dextrin to clump during rolling. Regardless, it is definitely better to press/pump glitters, you want to use as little water as you can get away with.

[Merlin]

The formula specifies dextrin so that's what I used. I like the idea of tumble mixing. I hate screening also. Maybe it was dex instead of sulfur. I will do it again and press. Would you suggest SGRS instead? I guess I could make a stock mix of dextrin liquor to wet with but if you tumbled surely the dex would incorporate. Do you tumble mix without media or with?

Whatever it was dex or sulfur it managed to appear free of the red iron oxide which really stains everything.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Merlin

[AzoMittle]

I tumble mix with media; my current setup uses less media than it should have and they are larger than it should be but it works fine for me. I only use SGRS when rolling, if pumping or cutting I use dextrin, mostly for price reasons but also because dextrin needs less water to activate and SGRS picks up comp smoother while rolling.

[Merlin]

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I think I am on the right course now. Details like this are hard to obtain any other way.

Thanks again.

[AzoMittle]

No problemo, feel free to shoot me a PM if you need any help

[braddsn]

I, like Azo, also ball-mill my glitters. I ball mill all charcoal comps too. Obviously all of these without metals. Also, when I mill a glitter that contains antimony trisulfide, I don't mill the trisulfide, I add it into the ball milled comp. I usually ball mill charcoal and glitter comps for 20 mins or so. I bind everything with dex.. I have tried most of the other binders, and for me, dex is the cheapest, and dries rock hard. It's just hard to beat!

[AzoMittle]

I, like Azo, also ball-mill my glitters. I ball mill all charcoal comps too. Obviously all of these without metals. Also, when I mill a glitter that contains antimony trisulfide, I don't mill the trisulfide, I add it into the ball milled comp. I usually ball mill charcoal and glitter comps for 20 mins or so. I bind everything with dex.. I have tried most of the other binders, and for me, dex is the cheapest, and dries rock hard. It's just hard to beat!

 

Antimony is a metal (well, semi-metal really) btw. I'm not sure if it's sparking but I never mill it just in case. Also for charcoal comps, don't ball mill coarse charcoal (36# or 80#, etc), reducing it to airfloat only negates its whole purpose to begin with (pretty sparks); I'm figuring you guys know that, but just in case someone stumbles across this thread.

 

I can only speak to my personal experience here, so please chime in!, but I've found:

 

• Dextrin and SGRS both bind rock hard, for stars I typically use 5% dextrin and 4% SGRS. I use 75% water 25% denatured alcohol +5% boric acid for anything water bound.
• Dextrin is cheaper, by far. I make mine from corn starch (google this if you don't know what I'm talking about).
• SGRS works better for rolled stars. I use dextrin for everything else that is water bound. I've found that SGRS works better for cut stars but not so significantly that I can justify the price difference, dextrin works fine.
• Dextrin works better for pressed/pump stars. It requires less water to activate, I add just enough water that comp doesn't stick to the walls when shaken in a ziploc bag (it still feels/looks dry but will bind fine).
• I hate the feeling of touching dextrin, it gives me the chills like fingernails scratching a chalkboard, only worse. If I have to handle the comp I prefer to avoid dextrin.

Edited September 8, 2016 by AzoMittle

[gregh]

I use starpol for rolling and pressing. I think it works better than dextrin or SGRS. I haven't even had a problem with driven in moisture when rolling charcoal comps over colors as some have had in the past.

[Carbon796]

SGRS should only be activated by water only, alcohol inhibits its binding. Using boric acid in every water bound comp is overkill, so is 5%. 2% is usually more than sufficient.

 

SGRS generally releases cleaner for pumped stars. It's especially advantageous for crossettes and cavity stars.

 

The myth that SGRS takes more water to activate than Dex, doesn't hold true in practice. Though for cutting stars, more water may be needed to achieve a similar consistency of a dex bound comp.

 

The driven in problem with starpol, came from using a starpol bound comp over a Dex bound comp. Dextrin readily reactivates, while SGRS & Starpol do not.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Carbon796

[Carbon796]

One problem is you are limited as to how much water you can use so next attempt I will press. But my question is about sulfur. I screened and mixed the dry comp until homogeneous. During the rolling (wetting) process I noticed specks of what appeared to be sulfur appear from the comp. why could this have happened?

This happens because sulfur tends to clump/stick to its self. So do some other chems, red gum and black copper oxide, to name a couple. If, for example, your using a 20 mesh screen to mix your chems with. You could / will have little -20 mesh " specks " of various chems in your homogeneous mix. If you take the back side of a spoon, and drag or smear it, on the surface of your screen mixed comp. You will generally see streaks from those little specks. Since sulfur is not soluble in water. It is probably standing out more, on the surface stars, as your rolling them.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Carbon796

[Merlin]

I believe you are correct. My practice forward is to ball mill components sans the metals. Of course some things like glitters are best not ball milled but I do have a couple gallon rubber drums with flats I can use to tumble mix. The Winokur did turn out reasonably well in spite of poor mixing and rolling but I won't try to roll against except to roll a glitter over a color core. Braden has a N1 over blue that is impressive. I want to try that.

[Carbon796]

If your chems, that are supposed to, pass a 40 mesh screen. Are then combined and screened 3 times through a 20 mesh screen. That is generally considered, to be mixed well enough, for most star comps. Ball milling all your individual chems isn't really necessary. Those little specks of sulfur, will not hurt anything. Edited September 10, 2016 by Carbon796

[Merlin]

You are correct the comp performed as expected in spite of visible sulfur. However I do have three ball mills so I can dedicate the one gallon to " milling" comps less metals. By ball milling I mean 30 min to an hour and the lortone is too slow for milling BP. For comps say with charcoal 20 to 80 mesh I can mix without media as the jar is rubber and has flats which jumble things around well. No screens to clean and less exposure to airborne particles. Just depends on the comp. For glitters I would let it mix an hour without media. I have always had trouble getting things properly screened. I agree if you really do get things like lumpy perc, strontium nitrate and pot nitrate through the 40 mesh your ok but for me it's easy to throw in in the mill and do something else while the mill does the work. All this said you can roll glitters without too much trouble. Pumping is a last resort for me because I don't have a powered ram - well elbow powered but next Winokur I will press to see if less moisture affects glitter effect. Edited September 11, 2016 by Merlin

[Mumbles]

If screen mixing isn't breaking up clumps than tumbling in a mill probably wont either. I'd suggest a finer screen. For difficult to break up things a final pass through a 40 or 60 mesh can help with staticy clumps or sticky materials. Finer screens also help to remove coarse bits from things like parlon and red gum which can interfere with colors.

 

I do ball mill many of my charcoal comps and glitter bases (nitrate, S, and C only) for a bit, but only because I have coarse nitrate. This is for only about 30min in an optimized mill. If there wasn't anything to crush, I probably wouldn't let it go for more than 5-10min.