Lifting shells

[Paradise]

Currently I lift 3 inch ball shells and 2 inch cans with rammed 8oz bp coreburning nozzeless rockets. I am ready to set up a press and am wondering if 1lb tooling would be the choice for lifting 4" ball shells and 3" cans comfortably without "pushing the envelope"? TY for any advice shared!

[dagabu]

Deciding if a certain motor will lift a shell of a certain size depends mostly on the desired display height. If you want to heave a shell 1000' up, they might not be your first choice. If 300' is your desired height, a 1 lb motor might be the perfect lifter for them.

 

Think also of delay, if you want the shell to break on the way up, at apogee or on the way down, you may have to dial that in as well.

[calebkessinger]

That should work fine. or. people do it all the time with great consistency.

a hand rammed bp motor with good fuel, nozzled or nozzless will do it.

[joeyz]

Paradise,

 

your questions are basically along the same reasons of why i joined this forum.

 

im new here and the main reason why i joined is because i was pushing 2", 3" shells/canisters with commerical estes E-9 end burner rocket motors (5" long, 3/4" diameter). not only was it expensive (3 pack for $18) but was struggling to lift 4" shells comfortably. at least you have a 8 oz tool kit to custom your own and maybe can push heavier shells and i cannot say if your pushing your limits with an 8 oz rocket and will leave that to the rocket experts here that have the experience. but i will say, like you, i too trying to step up and push my 3", 4"+ shells up comfortably without risk of disasters and the guys here helped me step up my game to professional 1lb rocket engine toolkits to make my own. as a pyro professional that specializes in 1.3 commercial public pyro musical displays, scripting and special effects, making rockets is totally new for me. i literally have hundreds of 3", 4" and 5" shells so i bought the 1lb professional toolkits so my team and i can use the excess or expired stock cases of mortar shells as rocket headers for our own private amusement when we arent doing a public show. it appears that 1lb rockets is the most popular size for these large shells/canisters sizes, we see and watch these all over on youtube (1lb 7 1/2" rocket with 3/4" ID). im not sure whats the max size of ball shell/weight that can be used on 1lb end burners or core burner rockets before it topples over but can say it should safely lift alot more weight with reliability/stability than a 8 oz engine can. like you, i was pondering back and forth on 8oz (5/8") vs 1lb (3/4") but i wanted that extra assurance of power to compensate bad build or overweight so i went with 1lb. if you do step up, just be careful on the 1lb toolkit selection and tubes. with zero knowledge on rocketry, i bought a cheap alumimum 1lb toolkit and tubes from rocketry websites and had all kinds of trouble. these guys here are rocket engineeer professionals, pgi members with great experience and can set you down the absolute correct path. especially caleb with his awesome professional rocket toolkits, dag, ddwee and other master wizards of knowledge. these guys can save you time, money and help get you up to speed fast but safely. again, im new to rocketry and just sharing my story.

 

lastly, 8oz may be perfect of what your trying to do and size limit of area you have to play with (groung and air space). for me, i have 20 acres, live in the country and can safely do much more - big ground and air space which is another reason of going 1lb max weight and altitude.

Edited September 7, 2016 by joeyz

[Paradise]

Display height right.. 300-500 feet for a 4" ball shell I am gathering would be nice. It sounds like the 1lb tooling's going to keep me busy awhile. Thank you all for the input! Just so happens I now know where to get very well made tooling for a realistic price. 😉

joeyz, Texas right? I am ENVIOUS of your big sky and wide open spaces that's for sure. Here in NH, pyro has made me now look forward to the longish snowy winter. As a newbie learning to launch rockets and mortar shells its a MUCH more forgiving season!! I agree with you on all your points regarding the APC forum. Those you mentioned plus a few more have become my pyro role models. I started off turning 3/8", 1/2" then 5/8" spindles and drilling the drifts (VERY TRICKY!) on my el cheapo table top drill press. The tooling worked well for long enough for me to figure out this was just the beginning. Before I was a member here I ordered the 8oz tooling from Rich Wolter for want of quality. After a bit of getting used to I get fairly consistent rockets now. Now that I've seen Calebs work... NICE! He seems like a true pyro craftsmen. I couldn't imagine a better source of tooling. Sooo, back to the nitty gritty! Do you find it at all difficult to get good consolidation hand ramming the 1lb rockets? What size hammer do you use?

[joeyz]

yes im texas.

 

texas - even though we have a wide open sky and the biggest state, we do have strict laws when it comes to pyro. fireworks in city limits is prohibited unless you have a permit. not only have to be federal licensed for 1.3g but state certifications and licensed as well, im licensed for everything i do and renewed annually. 1.4g arena and rocketry does not require a license and you can shoot pyro all day long as long as its outside city limits and not after sleep hours (disturbing the peace). rockets under 5" lengths motors, sticks under 18" length and normal firework bottle rockets are prohibited in state of texas for very good reasons. its very dry here, rockets of those class are unpredictable, crash to the ground and cause fires that endangers the environment.

 

APC - agree with you, i have respect for these guys for they do incorporate a balance of safety/law/professionalism from all parts of the world. in almost every discussion, someone is always looking out for each other for potential safety hazards but also provide a safer solution.

 

Caleb - a very innovative pro pyro hobbyist and machinist maximizing quality and performance in tooling. after i got his rocket tools and seen the performance results, i realized wow i wasted my money on another pyro tool site for some cheap end burner for $75 and tossed it into the trash. being honest, so far, caleb (www.woodysrocks.com) is the best i have seen and im a picky perfectionist. his tooling appears to be of higher experience, specification standards in dimensions of nozzles, spindles sizes and the alloys he uses withstand user and equipment wear and tear than others. he guarantees his workmanship, usually ships same day, provides excellent customer service and support. from what i see, that guy simply takes more pride in his work rather than profit and lives to a name you can trust. i think of him as the professor. so as you move on and advance in rocketry and cant get your own rocketry tools to its maximum specs/performance, hes definately the man to consult. he gots years of experience behind perfecting rocket tools so you wont have to reinvent unless you come up with a new design. technology changes every 6 months and new generations of hobbyist will come, there is always new ideas and room for improvements.

 

ramming - to better answer your question, i use to use a 2.5 pound thor hammer, LOL. now i use ned gorski's modified arbor press until i have more time to build this new pnuematic press with bp auto speed loader. like the fast comet star pump i made, i always brain/storming engineering ways to reduce time consuming steps to spend more time enjoying watching pyro than building it. the more steps you can technically master and reduce, the more you can focus on safety, quality checks and performance standards. SEE PHOTOS

 

press i use.

 

working on new press.

 

excuse the orange paint, i paint color code all my pyro equipment pyro red/orange (press, rocket racks, display fireworks trailer and all mortar racks). i use a 500 degree temperature engine enamel after i prime surfaces. i figured if the hard enamel works on car engine parts to withstand extreme heat, fuels, oils than its an excellent choice in increasing fire safety in the pyro equipment. it also seals and preserves the equipment (woods, metals, screws, bolts), burn resistant, weather proof, reduces maintenance, increases life expectancy, keeps it lookin clean and professional. all my equipment is fire proof. after a 11-14 minute display, my mortar equipment is pretty clean like it almost never happened, no burn or sticky marks from all that quickmatch etc from pyro products. my crew can esily clean equipment with an air hose and we just periodically wash equipment like a car.

 

fire proofing equipment.

Edited September 10, 2016 by joeyz

[NeighborJ]

I guess everything is bigger in Texas, including the rockets. By the way I think you might want to look in the mirror, you have some brown stuff on your nose. Haha. I would choose Caleb's tools first also he's a good guy. I like hand made tools a lot better than cnc mass produced products. If it is a good tool then it shows that someone put a lot of time and care into making it, so that helps me choose the people I support. I'm not a fan of corporations and will support the little guy every time.

[joeyz]

Hahaha

 

Im just being honest. Here is what happened to the other 1lb burner tool i bought from xxxxxxxx after i got and worked with caleb's tools...

 

[OldMarine]

Hahaha

 

Im just being honest. Here is what happened to the other 1lb burner tool i bought from xxxxxxxx after i got and worked with caleb's tools...

 

image.jpg

Haha! I bought a cheap end burner set from one of the crappier suppliers that was made of brass with a spindle made of wet spaghetti. I threw the spindle away and beveled the solid end of the rammer for a saxon tool. Every tool since has been from Caleb, Ben or Wolter.

No more cheapo shit! I can make better than that myself.

[NeighborJ]

OM I think I bought the same tool, the spindle looked like it was made on a rough sanding drum. I ended up using the pieces to make a base and rammer for my first homemade tools. I never looked back.

[OldMarine]

I made a rocket with the POS using SL chems and it almost flew over my tiny home. It left the backyard and landed in the front gutter still spewing sparks. I put it out with the hose and ordered some real tooling and made a TLUD.

[NeighborJ]

Hahahahahee, mine had a spindle shaped like a baseball bat and never made it out of the first motor, snapped clean off.

[joeyz]

Omg guys! LOL

[Paradise]

So how about hand ramming 1lb bp core burners? I assume it would be perfectly feasible but I've no experience trying. Using say a 2lb dead blow? Maybe a HF orange cheapo one would do the trick?

[NeighborJ]

The 2# dead blow should be just fine as long as its on a solid surface. I've used a heavy nylon flooring hammer to ram 6# motors with no issues. The agitation of repeated hits seems to pack it harder then a press can but it is less consistent than pressing. Edited September 10, 2016 by NeighborJ

[joeyz]

im no expert but i was managing with hand ramming 1lb end burner with an estimated 2lb hammer before making and using arbor press. earlier i said i used a 5 pound hammer, it was suppose to read 2.5 thor hammer, i corrected it. from what i saw others say here, they even ram 2lb, 3lb rockets with a mallet type hammer. not sure what the limits are to size or weight of mallets/hammers but what matters is compaction results. there are many youtube vids out there on how to ram a motor and is where i initally learned it from. some people use rawhide mallets/hammers and some use a steel sledge type hand mallet/hammer. i guess any hand held mallet/hammer that has enough weight to drive a tent peg into the dirt. when i started with the 2.5 lb mallet/hammer, i basically wacked the rammer 5-10 times or until i was certain that the rammer didnt move anymore, reached its max compact point, cant pack any further. then i knew it was packed and ready for the next teaspoon of bp rocket fuel to be rammed. Edited September 10, 2016 by joeyz

[OldMarine]

I've hand rammed 3lb BP rockets by using half-sized increments and a 2lb rawhide mallet with decent results. It was a whole bunch of whacking for one rocket!

[CrossOut]

 

ramming - to better answer your question, i use to use a 2.5 pound thor hammer, LOL. now i use ned gorski's modified arbor press until i have more time to build this new pnuematic press with bp auto speed loader. like the fast comet star pump i made, i always brain/storming engineering ways to reduce time consuming steps to spend more time enjoying watching pyro than building it. the more steps you can technically master and reduce, the more you can focus on safety, quality checks and performance standards. SEE PHOTOS

 

press i use.

image.jpg

 

working on new press.

image.jpg

 

excuse the orange paint, i paint color code all my pyro equipment pyro red/orange (press, rocket racks, display fireworks trailer and all mortar racks). i use a 500 degree temperature engine enamel after i prime surfaces. i figured if the hard enamel works on car engine parts to withstand extreme heat, fuels, oils than its an excellent choice in increasing fire safety in the pyro equipment. it also seals and preserves the equipment (woods, metals, screws, bolts), burn resistant, weather proof, reduces maintenance, increases life expectancy, keeps it lookin clean and professional. all my equipment is fire proof. after a 11-14 minute display, my mortar equipment is pretty clean like it almost never happened, no burn or sticky marks from all that quickmatch etc from pyro products. my crew can esily clean equipment with an air hose and we just periodically wash equipment like a car.

 

fire proofing equipment.

image.jpg

image.jpg

 

Thats a pretty nice set up you got there. When you begin doing whistles i recommend building a blast shield in front of the press station just in case. Since you are moving toward a linear actuated rig you can stand back a little further but a blast shield is still a must have.

 

I like your idea of using a hopper for your clay and BP. Just a note about them, they might not work unless you have some sort of vibration to keep the powder flowing.. This is especially so using riced BP as there are plenty of small peaks for the grains to get caught on..

The funnel works for commercial BP and gun powders because they coat every grain with graphite to keep it free flowing which isn't recommended for rockets.

 

 

As for hammering your rockets, It works great! I've actually only pressed a few rockets as my preferred method is to hammer them. It seems to be a little faster and it'll give you a good work out after a while lol. As many have said, you will need to use smaller increments than with pressing. IMO, if you are careful enough and weigh out your increments you can get a pretty consistent pack on your rocket. I use a 2# rubber mallet from Harbor freight. works like a charm and only costs like 5$

[joeyz]

cutout, thanks for the reply and tips. before trying to press whistle, will definately build a safety wall. i thnk i will leave whistle alone until i build this pnuematic press. i like to be safe as possible and keeping hands and arms away from harms way will make me feel so much better.

 

i have been hunting pnuematic cylinders on amazon and there are so many. here is one of the ones i been researching if its good enough...

 

building the rest of the pnuematic press is easy, just finding the right psi output air cylinder is the most important part. i am leaning towards a double action cylinder (up and down) and a 3 way switch (lever down, lever up, and lever center stop). no more mallet pounding or one arm bandit slot machine arbor freight pressing rockets and pulling out rammers, hahahaha

 

www.amazon.com seems to have everything i need.

 

pnuematic cyclinder. amazon $30

i like the way it comes with a cylinder bracket with 4 holes to bolt on top plate.

 

pnuematic cylinder 3 way switch option 1. amazon $12

 

pnuematic cylinder 3 way switch option 2. amazon $22

i like the looks and movement of this one but think the other is better to mount on side of machine.

 

i think i can build this press for est $200. i already have 21 gallon air compressor and a flux welder. even if you dont have a welder, you can air grind cut steel (cutting wheel), drill holes and make bolt together steel kit. making a box on side of press is easy with sheet metal and labels for switches and knobs is easy with brothers label maker.

Edited September 11, 2016 by joeyz

[joeyz]

the only thing i will have to find and add is a remote control 3 way switch on a 8' hose so i can stand back behind plexiglass and activate the press from a safe distance when dealing with potential hazards such as whistle.

[Mumbles]

You don't want plexiglass (acrylic). It shatters upon impact in case of a mishap. The proper shield material is Lexan or polycarbonate. Hockey "glass" is one secondhand source if you can find it. Otherwise it can be purchased of course.

[joeyz]

oh sweet! thanks mumbles. you saved me time and money on that added safety.

[CrossOut]

Good old wood barrier works to just can't see though it as well.. good way to put the neighbors fence to use other than blowing it up October sky style. Edited September 12, 2016 by CrossOut

[Paradise]

Seems like I am on the right track with ramming bp motors. A rawhide mallet is on my wish list. I've gone through a couple HF dead blows already. The small aluminum rod from my home made 3/8" star pump puts a hurting on the soft nylon head. (another wish list item). I crammed a socket on the end of it to give it a little more meat. I'd not realized a pnumatic press could be so inexpensive to build. I am not the most mechanically inclined compared to most people here though. 😮 weighing comp increments for larger motors seems like an idea I can adapt to. I don't mind ramming but was thinking the longer I do it the more likely a chance of a freak accident.?

[OldMarine]

It's like life itself, stay at it long enough and it'll kill ya!

I've never heard a first-hand account of someone blowing themselves up ramming a BP rocket. I'm sure it's happened but not apparently to anyone I've talked with. Regardless, I still wear my glove and face shield when hand ramming and prefer to use my press when possible.

Edited September 12, 2016 by OldMarine