Have been making BP and Nitrocellulose crackers, whats next?

[Skullivan]

1st let me say im still pretty new to pyro. I started with making my own model rocket sugar rocket engines with my homemade black powder parachute ejection charges. Since then Ive been having lots of fun making my own nitrocellulose, its fun burning small amounts in my hand like a magic trick. Ive also had success making black power or kno3/sugar bottle rockets with both bp and nitrocellulose reports. I like making crackers a lot and I want more experience and knowledge.

 

My questing is whats next? Ive read that flash powder is a touchy subject here and rightly so because of its power and sensitivity. I definitely intend to stay safe and legal but am curious to experiment with other mixtures and the different formulas of flash powders I find interesting.

 

What do you pros recommend? Whats the next step? What should I read and what should I try next?

[NeighborJ]

Have you tried making any stars? You will need your bp and nc skills for them and if you don't have any stars there won't be much need for flash except for the occasional salute. If you love a good bang with some visual effects then dragon eggs can be an attractive option. They work great in fountains, rockets, shells and star guns, I promise you won't be disappointed.

[Seymour]

Black Powder. Make Charcoal and a ball mill. From then on you can do stars, sells, rockets etc. Sounds like you've already done this. What charcoal are you using?

 

If you want to make colours you'll want Potassium perchlorate, Parlon, Barium nitrate, Copper oxide, MgAl, Strontium carbonate, Dextrin and Red Gum.

 

Burning nitro in yourhand is such fun

Edited August 25, 2016 by Seymour

[Skullivan]

I made my charcoal from white pine. I learned to make it in a paint can with vent hole at the top from nighthawkinlight youtube channel. Im working on a homemade ball mill (previous just made my parachute ejection BP in a mortar and pestle). My ball mill is made from a large pvc pipe with end caps. Im still figuring out how im going to power it. What milling media do you recommend? Ive bought some large fishing weights that appear to be lead. Im trying to stay on the cheap side. My budget is low until I make my youtube millions lol!

[NeighborJ]

The lead weights should be fine, they are normally made from lead balls or brass but that can get a little pricey. The paint can retort works very well and it cooks fast the downside is small batches and they can only be used 3-4 times before they fall apart. I use them for testing different potential charcoals. That ball mill is a must, the pestle needs to go. It simply has no safety factor. That mill can be loaded and plugged in remotely so even if something would happen any danger is minimized. Once you have a small stockpile of all three ingredients you can make endless variations of all kinds of charcoal stars. To make rocket headers you can start with Easter Egg shells and as you feel more comfortable with those then you could hopefully start getting some metal for the stars,aluminum flake, titanium, magnalium etc. It takes a while on a budget but it is totally doable, and always fun.

[CrossOut]

Well you are making bp and you are making sugar rockets, why don't you make some bp rockets.. tooling isn't too expensive compared to getting all the chemicals and supplies for making stars.. after tooling all you will need is some kitty litter and good paper tubes. You can start with a cheap 4oz set (1/2") our maybe even 1lb (3/4")

 

You might also enjoy making charcoal stars which you have the chemicals for as well. C6 and c12 are nice comps and you can add them to your rocket headers. Which brings me to the next recommendation...

 

Try making Italian style shells for your rocket headers. Only thing more you will need is craft paper, string, and glue.

[CrossOut]

For your ball mill, you can get a 1/3 to 1/2 motors from old washing machines pure other appliances...

 

For your media, fishing weights won't work well.. the lead is too soft and will contaminate you're bp.. contamination might be small but it'll have slight performance hit and breathing the smoke isn't good... I recommend hardened lead shot.. 1/2" as your cheapest option. Other good alternatives are stainless steel bearings, brass slugs, zirconia media,or non sparking alumina (most should be but double check)

[Wiley]

Hit Caleb up for some media. His is hardened lead, and ought to last the lifetime of the machine.

[Skullivan]

Ive just receive the 3 micron Al I ordered from Amazon. Ive did some research but I want to run this by you experts before proceeding. Ive found a recipe for a type of flash powder that uses 5 parts aluminium powder to 3 parts potassium nitrate to 2 parts sulfur. The recipe I found here http://explosives.wonderhowto.com/how-to/make-stable-flash-powder-0140100/

 

He uses a mortar and pestle to mix these ingredients and I thought "Oh No! hes going to blow his face off" but after consulting a more knowledgeable friend he said "since it was made with potassium nitrate instead of potassium chlorate it was safe to mix with mortar and pestle"

 

I did some testing with finely milled kno3 that I have for sugar rocket formula, I mixed this 5-3-2 recipe with the diaper method, and the end result is way faster and more powerful than any of my previous experience with sugar rocket, black powder and nitro cellulose.

 

But is it true that this "flash powder" recipe (is it real flash?) a safe place to upgrade my skill set with? Is it safe to mix with mortal and pestal or ball mill? I consider you guys the final authority on the subject!

[OldMarine]

I'm no expert but if you use a mortar and pestle for that mix, please get video.

That is a nitrate flash, and though "safer" than perchlorate based formulas, will still turn you to hamburger if mishandled.

I think some do a disservice by calling it by any other name than flash. This is one of the reasons I've been reluctant to try the stuff yet. False security is some bad JuJu.

Edited August 27, 2016 by OldMarine

[Skullivan]

Im a musician who plays piano and guitar as well as other instruments, loosing a finger or hand would be devastating for me. I will be milling my ingredients separately and diaper mixing anything im unsure about. I will only be making 10 grams or smaller batches and using it up, not storing anything.

[CrossOut]

You are a smart man. Don't believe everything you hear! Find evidence and make your own conclusions.

 

I would not recommend grinding that flash our any composition with metals in it. You can grind the sulfur and nitrate together and diaper in the al. That will be safe.

[braddsn]

Posts about flash are generally frowned upon, but if the posts don't get locked out after a few days, I would rather provide some safety information as opposed to letting you find out the hard way. There is a lot of information out there about flash powder... so what I will tell you is public information: 1) The safest and most widely used form of flash is 70/30 (KCLO4/Dark Aluminum). 2) Don't EVER grind or mill anything that has metal in it... that would be a disaster. 3) Flash is friction and static sensitive. Wear proper PPE, diaper mix the ingredients and never mix more than 10g at a time. 4) Never store it, only make what you will use. Make sure that when you are messing with this dangerous composition, always assume that it is going to ignite.. that way you are wearing proper protective gear and not mixing more than very small amounts. Also note that Sulfur makes flash even more sensitive, and easier to ignite. Be safe, because even 10g can injure you badly. Best of luck, and READ READ READ! Google is your friend.

[Sparx88]

Im a musician who plays piano and guitar as well as other instruments, loosing a finger or hand would be devastating for me. I will be milling my ingredients separately and diaper mixing anything im unsure about. I will only be making 10 grams or smaller batches and using it up, not storing anything.

 

Sound like me. Musical pyro. Food for thought, you screw up with this, you might then be qualified for tambourines, and a new stage name like "nubs"

 

Nevermind any talk you see about people making pounds and oz's. Us -hobby- guys well at least this hobby guy myself, doesn't let the fact that I or anyone else in the hobby club only make this stuff on the Gram scale, feel small or insignificant in any way. Not even in the slightest. So Yah, Stand Proud fellow Gram Masters!

Edited August 28, 2016 by Sparx88

[Skullivan]

I want to thanks everyone who helped me in this thread. Ive been following all the safety precautions and mixing only very small amounts of composition using protective gear, diapering 10g or less, never storing any.

 

A few other safety tips Ive learned along the way:

 

Dealing with trash: After diaper mixing composition do not throw any paper used in mixing into your shop trash can. Make a "burn bucket" and keep it outside of the shop. Carefully dispose of all those papers after each session. Papers with light coatings of flash can explode too! Remember your burn bucket will explode if it contains many sessions worth of paper with residue on it.

 

Cleaning your work area: Dont be a pyro slob, it will burn you in the end. Keep your work area immaculately clean. Sweep up your shop after every session and dump into your burn bucket. Small amounts of composition can build up on your floors and create serious fire or explosion hazzards! Keep work areas clean and clutter free.

 

Check the weather: As mentioned before, flash compositions are static sensitive. When the humidity and the temperature drops the dangers increase greatly. You know those cool dry windy days that cause your car to shock you when you get out to pump gas? Dont mix flash in those conditions. Ive come to love rainy days, Its safer to mix and I wont start a forest fire.

 

Thanks

[Arthur]

For a mill, get a big enough motor and belt to turn a drum full of lead balls, or use ceramic balls.

 

For next projects try good BP then all the variants on BP for charcoal stars, Tiger tail, Chrysanthemums, Slow Gold etc. Each of these just adds one other ingredient to make a different effect. THEN look at colour stars, which are usually a very different comp using perc as oxidiser, which will be a significant purchase as most colour stars use about 60% perc.

[Arthur]

Ignore flash all together for (say) five years, it's not user friendly.

[Arthur]

1g of fast flash in your hand will destroy that hand. Avoid all flash for as long as possible, then if you must, learn how to weigh out sub 100mg of powders so that you can make 100mg of flash carefully.

 

Never mill mixes with metal powders it's asking for trouble. Remember that the ingredients list is part of the specification, the rest is the milling and mixing method and the binding method.

[lloyd]

"1g of fast flash in your hand will destroy that hand. Avoid all flash for as long as possible, then if you must, learn how to weigh out sub 100mg of powders so that you can make 100mg of flash carefully."

-------------------

Please explain that first in detail, and explain what use one would have for 100mg of flash powder.

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

I, personally, see no practical use for 1/10th-gram of flash, unless it's to build two ordinary (consumer grade) 50mg firecrackers. And 'avoiding all flash' severely limits the scope and range of items a pyro can build. Care should be taught to new pyros, not fear. This is a material to be respected, not avoided.

 

There are as many safety issues with trying to accurately measure tiny quantities (and being compelled to do it over and over and over) as there are with carefully weighing larger amounts and using good practices to mix them. One's exposure is increased by the first way, and significantly reduced by mixing larger amounts at a time.

 

Flash powder IS more sensitive to friction and impact than black powder. That said, it is NOT horribly-so. This is not the stuff of bullet primers or toy caps. If ordinary care and shop hygiene are used, it can be made safely. The less-frequently you have to mix it, the less you're exposed to the dangers of doing so.

 

Please do explain how one gram of good flash can 'destroy' a hand. I'd like to know that for future reference.

 

Lloyd

[Skullivan]

"1g of fast flash in your hand will destroy that hand. Avoid all flash for as long as possible, then if you must, learn how to weigh out sub 100mg of powders so that you can make 100mg of flash carefully."

-------------------

 

 

Please do explain how one gram of good flash can 'destroy' a hand. I'd like to know that for future reference.

 

Lloyd

 

 

Lloyd I made some 1g firecrackers from my flash and they would definitely destroy a human hand. Think 20 times the amount in a consumer firecracker.

[lloyd]

THAT is NOT 1g of flash. That's a fully-contained 1g salute.

 

Unless we weren't communicating in the same vein, I read the OP to say that 1g of flash powder (not a finished salute) would destroy a hand.

 

It's fine to caution folks against the particular handling hazards of a material. It's NOT OK to tell them that a particular quantity of the material they're processing can do a certain amount of damage, when what you meant was "1 gram in a further-processed finished device" can destroy a hand".

 

And, I must ask -- by what experiment were you able to discern that it would destroy a hand? Did you test it on one?

 

I'm really not trying to be abusive -- seriously. I fully respect "due caution" with ALL pyro materials. I've been severely injured while processing pyro materials, in an accident that wouldn't have happened, had I done my research first.

 

What I'm trying to do is explain that "one thing is not the other", and that especially in this hobby, knowing "what is what" is the knowlege that will protect you, while confusing materials vs. processed goods might actually harm you.

 

FWIW, even one full gram of 'good' (hot) flash powder (not in a salute) will not explode with a report when ignited in a normally-slumped pile, and is even less explosive when that pile has been depressed in height by handling, etc. It WILL BURN THE LIVING CRAP out of you. It won't 'destroy a hand'.

 

Even some of the really vicious 'hyper flash' materials I've had to make for stage work will do a LOT of damage (blow a hole, break bones, etc.) in a bare hand; but they won't 'destroy' it. (It could sever a single finger, yes.)

 

Let's call a spade a spade. Deliberately building fear in folks' minds doesn't further the hobby.

 

LLoyd

Edited January 24, 2017 by lloyd

[lloyd]

Oh... and since I haven't yet heard from the OP... I still wonder what use 100mg of flash has in any 'real' pyro project.

 

Please understand -- I've made these things professionally for decades, and injuries to me and others have happened. But I also know what the materials can do, and what quantities are useful.

 

LLoyd

[Skullivan]

Lloyd,

 

Ah I see your point. The difference in 1g unconfined and 1g confined is a huge difference.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Lloyd, you probably meant that making 70/30 flash is not terribly more dangerous than BP. As you know, there are some flash formulas that are an accident waiting to happen, especially in inexperienced hands (trying to give OP some info, as it would be silly to tell you this).

 

Also, if you are going to experiment with flash, look into the binary method. You add both ingredients that have been screened separately one at a time to the final casing the FP is going into. So it is in 2 separate layers. The device is then closed and finished as normal. Finishing the device is enough to mix the powders though you can roll it around if you aren't convinced it's mixed well.

 

This way you don't have to ever mix and handle the finished mixture. It requires some empty space to mix so it won't work for everything but will work for many uses.

 

But learn to make something pretty and enhance it with the standard use of flash. Just making noise gets old and is the quickest way to get in trouble. Even a rocket with a report is a lot more fun than just a firecracker.

[Sparx88]

Yes, what he said. FlaMtnBkr.

 

I just want to add one more thing about this, and that is don't get relaxed while making/using this substance. Not that it hasn't been said in one way or another already, talking just from my own experience.

For instance, 3 years ago when I first started using different white star comps trying to find one that did what I wanted it to do, I got a very unpleasant surprise. I made some shimizu silver wave 60/40 perc/drk(my tweak added 5% firefly flake) and cut them. When dry I went to light the first one, it lit fast and in a millisecond went from a shower of white sparks to an explosion right in front of me no more than 4 ft away. No damage to me but took a small chunk out of the 2x10 it was on. A star, exploding. Not much of a surprise when you remember that the comp is basically a flash comp with dextrin/sgrs. Then adding the fact that cut stars can have a sponge like structure inside if not pressed enough before cutting, and that the outside layers were much wetter when making forming a hard shell around looser less bonded middle which caused the explosion. It might as well been a cherry banger. So that's it really, just wanted to add that to underline the importance of not getting complacent with this.