1lb Rockets Failing - I Need Help

[joeyz]

Crossout, thanks for the comments and will consider all said. I learn something new everyday. Didnt know you can mallet a 3" rocket. Speaking of that, going to try two rockets, one pressed and one mallet to see if their are any anomalies with my press.

 

Wow, pressing flash? Your not talking perc & dark flash? If so, thats nuts.

I assume your talking a slower flash with nitrate.

Edited September 2, 2016 by joeyz

[NeighborJ]

Joey he sure was talking about pressing 70:30 in an end burner. I've experimented with it and found the fuel burns fast but it has a low gas output so we get more total impulse from bp. Whistle is a form of organic flash only it has the gas production as well as the burn speed. To give you an idea I had to make a special end burner spindle which was nearly 1/2 the tube id and it was still at redline. I don't know how Caleb can get away with putting 1/2 bp and 1/2 whistle in standard tooling. Mine Cato at 1/8 whistle in an endburner.

[joeyz]

Neighborj. Yeah, true on whistle being simular to flash, i forget whistle uses the perc key ingredient as well.

 

Cutout, sorry. I shouldnt have joked on that one. You guys are much advanced in rocketry and i have much more to learn.

 

-joe

Edited September 2, 2016 by joeyz

[CrossOut]

Yep it was 70/30. My Ass was puckered watching him press that thing. I watched that one from further away.

 

Yeah it's depended on the size of your rocke you are pressing, a hammer exerts its energy in a shorter impulse with higher velocity which has more force for crushing and compressing. Overall it is less energy than a hydrolic press with the longer impulse but hammering gives more instantaneous force enough to generate a equally tight pack.. just to note you may need to use smaller increments for hammering. I usually do the amount to make a 1/4" fuel grain at a time. Your definitely don't want to use this method for sensitive mixes which is why pressing is the recommended method for those.

 

Alternatively you can build a cheap working press for your rockets using hydraulic press from harbor freight a couple of threaded rods, nuts, and few steel plates. Also need a pressure gauge I still use mine since I don't have the money for nicer one.

Edited September 2, 2016 by CrossOut

[joeyz]

Team,

 

UPDATE...

 

PROBLEM: Phil's 3/4" 1lb Swirl Tubes shrinking 1/2" to 3/8" and OD surface cracks after pressing a 7 1/2" rocket.

 

STATUS: Resolved!

 

SUMMARY: I did like you guys told me; i granulated my rocket BP and the tube shrinking & surface cracks problem went away. Tonight i pressed a 7 1/2" 1lb end burner and it worked! My finished rocket tube is 7 1/2" as i started with.

My assumptions, even though my previous powder wasn't dusty like moon dust, it was still too powdery, cakes easily and drag the tube within every press. Now that my fuel is granulated and crunchy like cereal, it compacts better (crushes) center force oppose to squishy powder that was forcing comp to sides of wall. With new granulated powder, it seems to focus force in center compacting.

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

I think what also helped was tighter tube as well, by off setting the clamps from pvc seam like neighbor said as well.

 

I just finished clean meshing & granulated my other fuel (with water) for my core burner and going to press a core burner next. Then im ready to take all these rockets, set them up and make you a vid of all the things spoken here. Should be positive results. 3 of the rockets should fail (dirty fuel, compact issues, etc), the 2 new rockets should be a success. We shall see hahaha

 

I am also loving this new end burner tool set from woodysrock (caleb)! Much better than the soft aluminum piece of crap i had and with the longer spindle there is room to even insert an ematch for electric firing. Simply love it!

 

PS: do you guys smell rotten eggs (sulfer) when you pull the rammer out after compacting granulated fuel? It seems to be stinkier now than before since i granulated it now. Maybe stinky means its good, LOL

Edited September 4, 2016 by joeyz

[CrossOut]

Good to hear can't wait to see the results

[OldMarine]

Team,

 

UPDATE...

 

PROBLEM: Phil's 3/4" 1lb Swirl Tubes shrinking 1/2" to 3/8" and OD surface cracks after pressing a 7 1/2" rocket.

 

STATUS: Resolved!

 

SUMMARY: I did like you guys told me; i granulated my rocket BP and the tube shrinking & surface cracks problem went away. Tonight i pressed a 7 1/2" 1lb end burner and it worked! My finished rocket tube is 7 1/2" as i started with.

My assumptions, even though my previous powder wasn't dusty like moon dust, it was still too powdery, cakes easily and drag the tube within every press. Now that my fuel is granulated and crunchy like cereal, it compacts better (crushes) center force oppose to squishy powder that was forcing comp to sides of wall. With new granulated powder, it seems to focus force in center compacting.

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

I think what also helped was tighter tube as well, by off setting the clamps from pvc seam like neighbor said as well.

 

I just finished clean meshing & granulated my other fuel (with water) for my core burner and going to press a core burner next. Then im ready to take all these rockets, set them up and make you a vid of all the things spoken here. Should be positive results. 3 of the rockets should fail (dirty fuel, compact issues, etc), the 2 new rockets should be a success. We shall see hahaha

 

I am also loving this new end burner tool set from woodysrock (caleb)! Much better than the soft aluminum piece of crap i had and with the longer spindle there is room to even insert an ematch for electric firing. Simply love it!

 

PS: do you guys smell rotten eggs (sulfer) when you pull the rammer out after compacting granulated fuel? It seems to be stinkier now than before since i granulated it now. Maybe stinky means its good, LOL

You are "squishing" the air out from between the grains and it's carrying that lovely aroma out of the tube with it! I never really noticed it until I got my vented hollow rammers from Caleb.

[joeyz]

Thanks marine, makes sense, like crushing a good italian dry coffee bean. Ahhh the aroma!

[OldMarine]

My first U/H rocket tooling was Steve LaDuke's which doesn't have a vent in the hollow rammer so I didn't get the "whiff" from it. I actually stepped back from the press the first time it happened because I thought I was about to get the old 1 second face bake!

[joeyz]

Team, sorry for the delay. Started video of the 5 rockets and the 1st one 1lb end burner 75/15/10, no granulated went south. Had to chase it down with fire extinguisher but it was already out. As i tried to fire the other rockets and resume filming for you to analyze, it got real gusty and started raining like cats & dogs. Secured remaining 4 rockets indoors and will resume testing video tomorrow. Then you guys can better assess what to do next.

 

Using the bismarck to test rockets, didnt want to blow my new wooden rocket rack with galvenized tubes. If one rocket catos, rack gone. Going to preserve the rack for the good stuff.

 

Meanwhile, please analyze this 1st rocket, 1lb end burner, fuel 75/15/10 non granulated, not ball milled. Charcoal looked too rich and no power. This was a cheap end burner tool with a very small diameter, not caleb's. Also, it was the batch that was powdery and like somone said, compacting issues. tomorrow, we will see how caleb's end burner performs with the new granulated fuel, better compaction. Its the 4th rocket in the cue on the launcher.

 

Thanks for all your patience, im still a noob with rockets and getting there. Never realized there is so much to rocketry, wow

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by joeyz

[NeighborJ]

I know I certainly haven't seen everything but I've never heard of anyone using screen mixed bp on an endburner. They take fast fuel, ball milling is a must. I believe you misunderstood David when he said to add unmilled charcoal to your fuel. It's only purpose was to add a charcoal tail. So it should only be about 10% screen mixed charcoal added to your hottest bp. The flame only looked rich because the charcoal was burning outside in the open air instead of inside the motor. The nozzled coreburner is the only motor which can work properly on unmilled bp. Edited September 5, 2016 by NeighborJ

[joeyz]

I think you are so right, i misunderstood, my fault. i really screwed the pooch on this bad. Murphy is on my butt.

 

End Burner fuel 75/15/10

I hand mixed it in bowl and added dashes of extra charcoal to give it the extra tail.

 

Core Burner fuel: 70/20/10

I ball milled that fuel.

 

I see now that i did the two fuels ass backwards. Damnit!

 

Oh well, after i fire these next 4 rockets tomorrow, im going to take the rest of both fuels, mix together, ball mill the hell out of it and use it for another pyro use. The 3 core burner rockets will most likely cato on the deck. Going to make two new fresh batches fuels and get this crap right. I did get a new coffee grinder too.

 

I think everything else you guys taught me i am straight on. Im almost there.

Again, thanks for your input good or bad.

 

Okay, i got now for future references... Ball mill end burner fuel and bowl mix core burner fuel. Granulate both.

 

I am also scrolling back to david's post and re read it again. I want to ensure this next batch of end burner and core burner fuels are 100%. Davidf has provided much valuable information that i need to take a step back, digest better and dont over think. I might take that end burner fuel and use it for core burner nozzleless as davidf said. But then again, not wasting time on it and refine for something else.

 

A valuable lessoned i learned is that end burners and core burners are different. I guess i took to much at once learning both at same time, got confused and made an idiot out of myself.

Edited September 5, 2016 by joeyz

[kyle0100]

I believe the fuel you are using is hygrosopic so you might want to try drying it before use.

[CrossOut]

Hygroscopic fuel shouldn't be an issue unless you are letting them sit in a humid environment for a long time. Since you are pressing them dry and using them withing a few days you should be fine. Yep definitely need to mill your BP for those end burners.. you literally cant get fuel that is too fast for those.. milling your core burner fuel shouldn't be an issue either since you already modified the fuel / oxidizer ratio. i use milled 70/20/10 for my end burners they are spicy but never CATO. (unless i screw up the rocket my self)

[NeighborJ]

It is so easy to miss vital pieces to this process without having an experienced build partner. I am by no means an expert and can't claim my rockets are perfect but the info I've gathered is mostly from trial and error ( mostly error ). This forum is awesome for filling in those missing informational gaps, but it is difficult to fill someone in on every single piece of the puzzle without showing them in person. I think the excessive length of this thread is tribute to this undeniable fact. I very much enjoy this thread because I have gotten certain incite into other people's processes and have seen their reasoning and issues. I've learned a lot here and I'm sure more is to come. So keep up the good work, keep us posted, especially when you change something. Don't get discouraged with failures they are the things we all can learn the most from. You have come so far and I think the hard part is behind you.

[joeyz]

thanks guys, i really appreciate it and didnt mean to beat this to death. i picked up this rocket hobby when i joined this forum just 2 months ago. everyday i learn something new from you guys and assure that all your comments are not wasted and have been very valuable in every way. i am almost complete.

 

end burner 75/15/10 bp fuel, i ball milled a new batch the other day and granulated it. ready to press new end burner rockets.

 

core burner 70/20/10 bp fuel, i took that old ball milled moon dust fuel and added 1 part of bowl hand mixed 70/20/10 fuel to tone it down, very fine meshed screened it together and granulated the fuel.

last night i pressed and fired 3 1lb core rockets. non them cato'd (stick bomb) but they took off like a bat out of hell simular to mumbles or ddwee's IBP rocket (as a flash comp) soaring about a mile into the sky within about 2-3 seconds, holy crap it was fast!

 

i know now i wasnt suppose to ball mill core burner bp fuel by your post (reason for cato) but i already had 5 pounds of this fuel and was trying to recycle that fuel since i have so much of it. think i will press 2-3 more and show you guys a video if this is normal speed for a core burner or if im still running too hot. at least non of them cato'd.

 

once these fuels are depleted, will definately follow the rules:

1. end burner, must mill, recommended 75/15/10

2. core burner, must hand bowl mix, recommended 70/20/10

3. last but not least, granulate all bp fuels!

Edited September 11, 2016 by joeyz

[CrossOut]

honestly there are no methods written in stone on how things should be made as long as it is safe. Whatever you find to be reliable and repeatable works as well as the next. For those core burners that's about what you ate looking for. Highest amount of thrust you can get without having a Cato. It's all about optimizing within safe standards. NASA didn't get a guy into space by using known reliable fuels. They got there by pushing the limits.

[joeyz]

Okay guys, i think i graduated this thread. Rockets flying well but need your experience on wooden stick potential flaming arrows. I went with poplar wood sticks cause it was cheaper and lighter in weight.

 

 

Tone the fuel down once more by adding more hand mixed 70/20/10 core bp fuel to my high potent wrongly balled milled core fuel. Is my speed correct now or too fast and risk of cato?

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by joeyz

[CrossOut]

That looks about right. i think you have it pretty dialed in there.

 

As for your sticks, Wrapping them with your foil tape will work. or simply use thicker sticks.. Poplar and balsa might be a little too soft and burns easily you can go with something a little heavier like cedar or i really like to use bamboo or river reeds.

 

Time to make bigger rockets

Edited September 13, 2016 by CrossOut

[OldMarine]

White poplar makes great sticks but you need them thick enough to last through the burn.

Wouldn't it be great if you could size your stick so it'd be burned through enough by apogee that the header burst would blow it apart?

[NeighborJ]

Looking good, once you put a 3" ball shell on it, it'll lift perfect. That motor should be able to lift a 450g shell with fast burning stars. 300g should be a perfect display height for most every shell. Just wait till you try it with fast powder and nozzleless, it'll be hard to locate even in that big Texas sky. Throw 5% titanium in the delay so it is easier to locate way up there, I also dump 1/4" of flash or loose whistle comp in the top and hold it in place with masking tape so I can dial in the delay timing.

Crossout is right a 3# motor will lift even a 600g header to a perfect height. And without it, that thing will be out of sight. It can only get better from here. I wanna see the end burner too.

[joeyz]

Team, thanks! All comments noted.

 

My focus is safety and professionalism at all times. After patrolling the splash area for 25 minutes on the golf cart, didnt find the rocket so i can inspect the rocket, particulary the stick/alum tape burn point. I know its on my property somewhere, probably landed in the trees. Best part is no fires. Going to make two more. One nozzeless core burner with the 70/20/10 and another core nozzleless with that hand milled 75//15/10 fuel to see what they do. My rocket test today wasnt as fast as friday's rockets for i did tone down the fuel but interested in trying my first nozzleless core rocket to learn about it and how it performs.

[AcEz03]

This makes a lot of sense I've been doing rockets for a couple of years. I started out with r-candy, but got tired of issues of storing the rockets(feel like they drew moisture) they didn't work so well after a few days of storage. Every since I moved to bp rockets I have had way more catos then actual flying rockets. I just recently bought a 1lb core burning tooling from woodys and still had catos. Going to definitely try wetting my Chems before pressing. Only have one issue I'm going to be using a hydraulic press and don't know what pressure I should be aiming for.

[calebkessinger]

What tubes are you using AcEz03?

what was your fuel mixture?

did you hand ram them?

 

If you are going to press them you will need some sort of support, the tubes need to be strong enough to endure pressing,

To get a 1lb rocket pressed at 6000 psi on the comp you will need 2652 pounds of force. They will work pressed at less pressure if you are using pulpy tubes.

 

You can start watching ned's fireworking101 to get some instructions on how to prepare comp properly. In the 201 he goes into rockets and stuff I believe.

 

we can get your rockets headed skyward with a little info.

I too find no humor in cato's ..

ok .. some of them are pretty cool but if I wanted booms I'd just make them.

[AcEz03]

Calebkessinger I'm using the tubes you can buy from Woodysrocks.com. They came with the tooling I bought. I did wet the 70/20/10 fuel and it did work. I went from a arbor press to a hydraulic press waiting to get a pressure gauge for it. I'm guessing I was using to dry of comp. Glad I was able to get at least one in the air. Now to only get some more tubes. Everywhere I look it's crazy expensive to buy tubes for the 1lb rockets. Almost makes me wish I would have went to 8oz rockets lol. Woodys want 25 for 20 tubes and a 15 dollar shipping and skylight has uncut tubes for like 36 but by time they add shipping it's over 50 some bucks.