IBP motor propellant

[NeighborJ]

At the risk of being scolded for inquiring about these motors due to the inherent manufacturing risks, I would like to learn more about them. I've started this topic because of the lack of information in the forum other than a few casual references. I'd like some insight as far as formula, recommended mesh size, desensitizers, binders, and successful spindle sizes.

These motors appear attractive due to their amazing impulse and lack of an obnoxious whistle. It is not my intention to augment a bp motor with it but to make a 100% flash motor. Any info would be helpful.

[AzoMittle]

Could you link to and/or explain what you are asking about? I tried googling different variations of "ibp rocket" and found nothing...

[NeighborJ]

IBP is an acronym for insane black powder. It has been shown on YouTube videos and is a flash powder bp mix. I can assume it is layered much as you would whistle, and would need a desensitizer such as wax or mineral oil and likely needs a binder, mabe red gum? I'd expect it uses a less reactive aluminum such as Alcoa 120 and I'd almost guarantee it uses a slower form of flash then 70:30, mabe with sulfer. But it is all speculation. If I had to guess I think the spindle would be a short pusher design.

[ddewees]

Here's six of them strapped to a broomstick... With a twenty pound header.

 

[Video]

 

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/rocket2_zpsdrycl7jq.png

[NeighborJ]

Those motors are crazy and have a very unique sound. It's just the kind of oddball motor I gravitate toward.

[Shunt]

"It is not my intention to augment a bp motor with it but to make a 100% flash motor. Any info would be helpful."

 

100% flash rocket motors?!!! Stop, back up 300 steps, and be glad you are still alive and able to research the posts here!

 

You are on a well documented path to the ER or undertaker if you pursue this!

 

I gave up trying to teach mathematics to squirrels years ago, because it just pisses off the squirrel and is a waste of my time, but I just had to say NO to this one...

[NeighborJ]

Shunt, I asked for info and you provided some. I'm not complaining.

I can take advice but it carries more weight without the insults.😊

Edited August 15, 2016 by NeighborJ

[Maserface]

Shunt, how do you feel about the oft published red/green/yellow mgal fueled rockets? Are you aware that the PGI published an article describing a rocket made with flash and a little lubricant?

Edited August 15, 2016 by Maserface

[NeighborJ]

Many of the stars we make are modified flash formulas and can be used in gogeters. This is the kind of "flash" propellant I'm thinking of using.70:30 would be too aggressive It should not mater if the increments are layered with bp or not, the spindle will be tuned to the fuel, whatever it may be.

[ddewees]

The ones I make use 70/30 using star molecule dark aluminum.

 

I posted detailed instructions on how I make mine somewhere on this forum. They make a beautiful grain that is easy to work with. I also prefer the larger magnalium.

 

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/Screenshot_2015-03-27-20-44-36_zpsnm9lbhju.png

 

I don't make a mud ball either... Just damp enough to keep the dust away.

 

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/Screenshot_2015-04-06-10-55-07_zpsiffoknew.png

[NeighborJ]

After thinking about this project a little more, I believe that this is not what I am looking for.

The metal fuel has a high burn rate but suffers from low gas production. I'm looking for something comparable to hot whistle but without the noise. This motor may have potential if a second fuel is incorporated into it. Mabe hexamine or even just charcoal?

[ddewees]

David Forster makes one pound black powder rockets with over 100 pounds of thrust. My guess is they're probably closer to what you're looking for.

[NeighborJ]

I've managed to fit a 4# spindle in a 1# tube. It makes a lot of thrust but im looking for a fuel comparable to cu sali which will work on short pusher style spindles. I have whistles I just don't want the whistle. BTW I know hexamine won't work it burns to slow.

[ddewees]

Just adulterate your whistle... It will remove the sound. Or add a nozzle...

How can you not like whistle? Are you a communist?

[NeighborJ]

Haha I'm not looking for the easy way out, that is something that anyone can do. I like the motors which are difficult to make work, zinc sulfer,ap, hot catalyzed whistle. The 100% flash motor was too easy and rather unimpressive.

Sorry my phone is acting glitchy.

Edited August 15, 2016 by NeighborJ

[Seymour]

Ddewees I could watch that broomstick fly all day long How did you light them all simultaneously?

NeighbourJ, the composition that I am aware of being named "IBP" is one I came up with. The idea being not so much to make BP much, much better, but to make it look cooler. Essentially the characteristics that I was aiming for was a propellant that was a little bit more powerful than BP, but have a much bigger, much brighter flame.

 

The name I call it is "6 3 1 metal", and since I'm about to give full details, I want to add that this is not a safe rocket fuel. It is not BP and cannot be treated as such. It should never be rammed. Accidents with it can be much more devastating. It not only loads black powder up with metals, but some of the most extreme metals we use in pyro, and then some KClO4 for good measure. As a rocket fuel this is a novelty, or a special effect (it's designed for use is special effects) but if it was to explode during manufacture it would be far more dangerous than if it was pure black powder.

 

This is how I make it:

 

60% Black powder. Originally I used this straight out of the mill, 75/15/10 Paulownia. However now I use -40 mesh fines from pressed and corned Paulownia BP. This is ideal, but not possible for everyone.

 

30% Flash. This should be the good stuff. 70% KClO4 and 30% Dark Aluminium. Substituting Dark Aluminium with other grades will immediately change the performance. This fuel is for nozzleless rockets and end burners. You want all the burn speed you can get, thus the hottest aluminium.

 

10% Magnalium. This is here to over fuel things for a few reasons. One is to make it less likely to explode. By over fuelling it, the propellant becomes less likely to CATO. However MgAl is not an ideal fuel to use for that, however it mainly chosen to create the big flame which is essentially the thing this whole propellant is designed for. The quality of the MgAl is probably the least critical factor in this fuel (though changing it will have an effect)

 

I also add 2.5% wax to help it press better, chill it out a bit, and keep the dust out. Really it is 60/30/10/2.5

 

I weigh out the KClO4 and screen it multiple times, at the very least through a 40 mesh and ideally through a finer screen. I then screen the MgAl and Al on top of it and diaper it a bit. Next I screen this mix several times, very carefully. If you are not comfortable screening flash, this could be diapered for a lot longer and the screening just flash bit can be skipped.

 

Ideally I dry the BP (ideally -40 mesh corning dust, Paulownia or other hot charcoal) on a tray in the sun. The KP, MgAl and Al are screened in to the BP several times with a 40 and then once with a 20.

 

Finally the 2.5% wax is molten, dissolved in an appropriate hydrocarbon solvent and hand mixed in to the fuel, dried on trays and gently broken up through a scree to remove large lumps after the solvent dries.

 

 

The cored rockets (nossleless) bolt in to the sky pretty quick with a big white flame. For a 19mm diameter motor (1lb) the flame can easily exceed the size of a person*, and be a white MgAl flame. The effect looks cool and I'm happy with it. They perform slightly better than BP, but not by much. If raw thrust is your only criteria, then it is not worth the expensive chemicals. This fuel is primarily a special effects/novelty rocket fuel.

 

For End burners similarly, it behaves much like a plain BP end burner except with probably a smidgen more power, but with a relatively big white flame (nothing on the nozzleless). These do not look like BP when they fly (white MgAl flame will do that, boosted by 30% flash) and they sound different. It is these effects that cause me to make these end burners. I have also found them surprisingly reliable. On a 19mm diameter end burner my standard hole is 4mm, but they'll fly on 6mm, or 3mm. I've tried 2.5mm and had many blow up but some fly, which makes me feel like 4mm is a very safe nozzle throat diameter. I've never had a 19mm end burner cato with a 4mm diameter throat.

 

Oh and for nozzles I've used cores 55mm long and 5.5mm diameter at the base. I know other have used longer, but this has worked for me and my desired effects.

 

* Error, that was actually a modified formula that had the bigger than people flames with the spindle I use. It was 55% BP, 30% flash, 15% MgAl + wax

Edited August 15, 2016 by Seymour

[NeighborJ]

Thank you Seymour for your detailed description of your motor. I was certainly fooled, by the large flames, into thinking it was a much more powerful motor than it is.

I'm curious if you have ever used tizirconium alloy to increase the flame of a normal bp motor? I've posted a clip in a previous post of an endburner test. The test shows bp on left and increasing amounts of alloy, up to 24% on right. It has an effect like you describe. If this is comparable I think I'd feel safer using this method. Let me know, thanks

Well it appears that I have deleted the clip but you can still view it on this forum under titanium zirconium alloy. Ahaa I've found it.

Edited August 15, 2016 by NeighborJ

[ddewees]

I don't get why people think they're underpowered... Those rockets (the way I make them) get the best reaction out of people over any other rocket I've ever seen. They're loud, and fast as a lightning bolt, and fly in a straight line. They'll go over a mile too if you fill the delay with whistle, and they're still going straight up.

 

People at MAPAG used to joke about calling the FAA.

 

They're not really a good "effect" rocket since they're gone before you can even focus your vision. I think methods in construction can make them vary widely. They never worked well for me in 3/4 inch ID, even when made the same way. They were lame actually.

 

What's really neat is how they sit on the rack for a second with an extremely bright exhaust...

 

Fun stuff. They'll put a smile on anyone's face.

 

[Video]

[Seymour]

This fuel is not as powerful as whistle, but it is better than Black powder. I believe everything in this range can be considered powerful, but in terms of ISP, this stuff has nothing on APCP.

I do want to try to make it look like it is some kind of really powerful stuff, perhaps APCP, but not specifically.

 

The special effect I'm after is something along the lines of a battery of ten of these nozzle less rockets to make it look like short range artillery rockets, like katyusha rockets fired from a multiple launcher unit.

As a separate effect the end burners provide quite a lot of fire and a relatively slow and gentle lift off, which looks great for a close up recording of it launching.

 

 

 

They're loud, and fast as a lightning bolt, and fly in a straight line.

 

 

Indeed and I've used fins on them and fired them from a tube with grained Black powder. They are good lighting bolts. Might pass for some military rocket in a battlefield situation?

 

 

 

I'm curious if you have ever used tizirconium alloy to increase the flame of a normal bp motor? I've posted a clip in a previous post of an endburner test. The test shows bp on left and increasing amounts of alloy, up to 24% on right. It has an effect like you describe. If this is comparable I think I'd feel safer using this method. Let me know, thanks

 

NeighbourJ, I've never knowingly used any zirconium alloys of any kind but I do have some very fine Titanium that may make a good flame very easily. Hopefully it will make a good noise too. In your video the one on the right had a flame that looked very good.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Seymour

[NeighborJ]

That alloy has its drawbacks, it causes extreme nozzle erosion and with a grain length any more than 5" it will stop pushing. I'm wondering if your ibp motor has similar issues? Because of the metal, I'm curious if you use a modified nozzle mix?

[DavidF]

David Forster makes one pound black powder rockets with over 100 pounds of thrust. My guess is they're probably closer to what you're looking for.

Thanks Dan. And happy birthday! Yes, I have made black powder rockets with over 100 pounds of peak thrust- just to prove it could be done. I've always wondered about making perchlorate-based propellant with charcoal as the fuel. Never did it though.

 

That broomstick rocket was nice!

Edited August 16, 2016 by DavidF

[Maserface]

I've got thrust data for one of your 3# iterations of this propelleant Dan- I remember comparing it to a black powder rocket of mine, and it was stronger but not as strong as whistle.

 

I've never gotten them to work either, I had some rack roasters and then catos- I should get into them again

[NeighborJ]

Haha David that might be a good idea, a little H3 rocket fuel. Mabe some catalyst, a sprinkle of MgAl what could go wrong.

[Seymour]

For the end burners I just use clay and expect some change in nozzle geometry. I'm mostly doing 19mm diameter rockets and it has just never bothered me. They fly, with a sizzling roar and a bright flame, and I'm happy. While the change in nozzle throat diameter is real, this propellant can fly well with diameters significantly below and above what I use. It is quite forgiving in this regard.

 

If I was going for top performance I'd just ditch this fuel and use whistle or APCP.

 

My attitude with this stuff is that it is relatively easy to get to work and can work in a "crazy" way. the lightning bolts thing. I'm not trying to get the most out of it. I'm interested in making much more erosion resistant nozzles for high metal APCP, but those motors will be optimised for me. 6/3/1 metal /Insane BP is something that I use for the novelty, effect and reliability considering the ease of manufacture.

 

Have you got any ideas for strengthening nozzles for more erosive exhaust flows? I am interested in this, especially simple ways, if possible.

[NeighborJ]

Seymour

I've also been curious about the alternative nozzle mixes and I know there are formulas here in the forum. The last one I can remember used bentonite grog graphite and wax which is all but baked out before pressing. It would be nice if these formulas could be posted in our formulary database. I've seen a few others which work even better but they sounded rather difficult to make and the people using them didn't seem to agree on the best way of preparing them. Their methods varied greatly.