what is a universal core burn rocket tool?

[joeyz]

hi,

 

i am about to purchase a 1lb (3/4") rocket tool from pyro direct (cheapest i can find) but stumped on which one to get. i see that there are two types:

 

1. 1lb Super BP core burn

2. 1lb Universal core burn

 

whats the difference? what i want is my rocket to go as high as possible with a 2-4" header. and capability of eventually using whistle mix to make them scream and make strobe rockets too.

 

thanks for your help.

 

-joe

[OldMarine]

The universal hybrid is the most useful tooling. I haven't dealt with pyrodirect so can't comment on their tooling but I can highly recommend that from woodysrocks.com and Steve LaDuke.

The U/H tooling allows you to make all of the rockets you mentioned above.

[dagabu]

Their tooling is from Ben Smith, it has a hard black coating on it. Ben uses the name Universal Core Burn to honor the inventor, Steve LaDuke, who invented the Universal Hybrid tooling set back in the 1990s and had tweaked it many times since, I am honored to have a signed set myself as well as an updated set by Ben Smith.

 

That said, I would go with Caleb's tooling instead, for one, the price is lower ($105.00 as of 07/30/2016 vs $139.00 direct from Ben or Pyro Direct) and the overall quality is the same plus Caleb is MILES AHEAD in customer service and delivery times.

 

"Universal Core Burn

An updated design, the FireSmith version of the universal fuel rocket can be used to produce many different types of rockets. BP, Strobe, Screamer, Hybrid, Assisted and more! Machined of 6061 aluminum with bronze spindles, each set includes our universal base, removable spindle, rammers and stainless puller. All bases and rammers are chemically blackened, surface hardened, marked with no-pass and swap lines and engraved with tool set name and tube length. The FireSmith spindle removal tool and tube extender are highly recommended for use with these rocket sets."

"Super BP Core Burn

An updated version of an old favorite. The FireSmith Super BP Core Burner rocket sets feature modified nozzle geometry more closely resembling a true De Laval nozzle. The end result is a more efficient rocket motor with a bit more "snort" than traditional BP rocket sets. Plus, the spindles are machined from bronze for durability and a long life. These super BP sets can also be used to produce great whistle and strobe rockets. Each set includes a universal base, removable spindle, rammers and stainless puller. All bases and rammers are chemically blackened, surface hardened, marked with no-pass and swap lines and engraved with tool set name and tube length. The FireSmith spindle removal tool and tube extender are highly recommended for use with these rocket sets."

If I was to make the decision today on just one set, I would have to be the Universal Core Burn set, hands down! For me, the reasons are simple; 11 different devices can so far be made with this tool set, along with hot whistle motors! The Super BP Core Burn set is just too long to support energetic fuels.

 

http://www.pyrodirect.com/media/ecom/prodlg/1lb_Universal_Large.jpgBens Smith's Set

 

Caleb's

Edited July 30, 2016 by dagabu

[joeyz]

totally awesome! enough said. your a life saver, i owe you a 10" shell

[mikeee]

I like the Super BP you can push the limits with the long spindle with different fuels, you can get the rockets to jump off the launch pad.

I can always bottom fuse or inhibit the fuel grain if it is too hot.

[joeyz]

and thank you old marine, im old army. your info was spot on.

do you get many crack ups about lebanon, tn? lol

texas has many strange city names too, like paris, tx etc, lol

[joeyz]

mike, thanks! that sounds very interesting to me too. but i guess unversal is best, getting more bang for your buck rather than buying multiple tool kits which my wife will go bananas on me about. doing more with less.

[OldMarine]

mike, thanks! that sounds very interesting to me too. but i guess unversal is best, getting more bang for your buck rather than buying multiple tool kits which my wife will go bananas on me about. doing more with less.

Hehe, I started with the 1lb U/H set from SLD and the next thing you know I had the master rocket set from Caleb and a 3lb U/H with support and....

[joeyz]

hahaha i hear ya brother. eventually i will want everyone of them if they have unique feature than others dont. right now, looking for a great starter. i would love to have a 3lb but dont have a press. not even sure is a 3lb can be pounded hard enough just for BP.

[joeyz]

you may be wondering...joe is a pyro guy for years and hes just getting into rockets?

 

Long story short....

 

i joined the army in 1980 and started as a missile crew member and moved up through ranks and rocketry skills in department of defense over 22 years but at a much higher level than a rocket hobbyist. i have worked with redeye, shapparral, hawk, nikey hercules, stinger, avenger missile/rocket ballistic aerial target systems across half the world and decided when i retire that i dont want to see another freakin rocket in my life. LOL

 

but my 8 year old daughter recently drew interest this year and was disappointed that all my 1.4g and 1.3g display only have cakes, special effects and 2" to 10" shells. so now im making rockets for her and im getting clients that want rockets as part of national anthems (..."and rockets red glare...bombs bursting in air" humma humma. LOL

[joeyz]

speaking of the 80's, god bless ronald reagon, america and the end of the cold war. i really hated red alerts at 3 am, rushing to controls, waiting for our commander in chief and generals ordering to push the buttons lol

[mikeee]

hahaha i hear ya brother. eventually i will want everyone of them if they have unique feature than others dont. right now, looking for a great starter. i would love to have a 3lb but dont have a press. not even sure is a 3lb can be pounded hard enough just for BP.

The best tool you can purchase for the long term in rocketry is a metal lathe.

You can quickly re-coop your investment with the first couple sets of tooling you turn on the machine.

[joeyz]

thanks mike, i am still considered that after seeing how much these little buggers run. scouted mini lathes on craiglist ($300) and harbor freights ($500). i been bouncing back and forth on the idea for weeks now. i can get the lathe, material and have the competency to make my own sets but lack the technical specifications/dimensions of each tool except the one and not really sure how deep i want to go so i backed out of that idea for now. you rocket guys are doing awesome art work so its hard to turn away from this hobby. for now just going to get a 8 oz 5/8" universal core tool kit and see where that takes me. if i do jump up, it will be to a 3LB+ once i figure out economically build my own hydralic press with gauges and switches. so i think right now my first problem is getting a stronger press rather than all the tool kits. fuel and pressing seems to be back bone of the whole thing.

 

awsome suggestion, thanks for looking out for me and i love ya for that.

[joeyz]

Dag, thanks, just ordered the 8oz 5/8" and 1lb 3/4" tool kits from woodys. now just where to find tubes that are affordable.

[OldMarine]

Dag, thanks, just ordered the 8oz 5/8" and 1lb 3/4" tool kits from woodys. now just where to find tubes that are affordable.

Phil's General Store: http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/?main_page=index&cPath=72

They're spiral wound but I have yet to have one fail. These are waaaay cheaper than the parallel tubes from Hobby Horse.

[schroedinger]

Well you could also buy one of calebs master rocket sets:

http://www.woodysrocks.com/store/p80/Master_Tooling_Rocket_Sets.html

 

It looks expensive, but if you take a closer look what you get for the price, you will find that it is worth the money, since you got tools that normally would cost you ~ 1000 $ if you buy them standalone. If you can afford it, skip the lathe and buy this set and have everything covered in the class. Gerv, end burners, all whistles, and bp rockets, except for classical spinner rockets. In the long term this set will safe you a lot of money.

[mikeee]

thanks mike, i am still considered that after seeing how much these little buggers run. scouted mini lathes on craiglist ($300) and harbor freights ($500). i been bouncing back and forth on the idea for weeks now. i can get the lathe, material and have the competency to make my own sets but lack the technical specifications/dimensions of each tool except the one and not really sure how deep i want to go so i backed out of that idea for now. you rocket guys are doing awesome art work so its hard to turn away from this hobby. for now just going to get a 8 oz 5/8" universal core tool kit and see where that takes me. if i do jump up, it will be to a 3LB+ once i figure out economically build my own hydralic press with gauges and switches. so i think right now my first problem is getting a stronger press rather than all the tool kits. fuel and pressing seems to be back bone of the whole thing.

 

awsome suggestion, thanks for looking out for me and i love ya for that.

 

Joe,

If you ever decide to purchase a metal lathe a used one is a good way to go on your first acquisition, an old Atlas Lathe or Logan Lathe is easily found and they last forever. You usually end up with a package deal with plenty of tooling, there are several websites that support the old machines and can answer any questions. The older machines are rock solid and better quality than the low cost import machines made today. The older machines are twice as heavy as the newer machines, this makes a difference when cutting hard steel on a machine. A light weight machine will chatter and vibrate while cutting hard metals producing poor quality finishes and takes longer when making lighter cuts to make your piece. The small micro lathes are a waste of time for the type of machining used for Pyro tooling. YouTube has video tutorials on rebuilding the old machines and basic tutorials on basic machining use.

Edited July 31, 2016 by mikeee

[joeyz]

thanks mike, tis one of reasons why i havent bought one yet. im totally with you on our old machines oppose to today's new cheap machines unless you reach deep into your pocket.

[Bensmith]

<<That said, I would go with Caleb's tooling instead, for one, the price is lower ($105.00 as of 07/30/2016 vs $139.00 direct from Ben or Pyro Direct) and the overall quality is the same plus Caleb is MILES AHEAD in customer service and delivery times. >>

 

Dave, I gotta disagree with you here. Yes, my tooling is $34 more expensive than what is available elsewhere. However, it is a vastly superior product that is easier to use, much more durable and precise. Completely CAD/CAM designed and CNC machined (vs. manual). The bronze spindle (vs. brass or aluminum from other vendors) is much stronger and releases much easier from a pressed motor. The rammers and base are all hardened and chemically blackened. Compared to bare aluminum (again, from other vendors) this hardening produces a surface that is nearly impossible to scratch or gall. Plus, the rammers release much easier after each increment since the surface is "slippery". The engraving of the swap and no pass lines and product info prevents damage and accidents caused by mismatching rammers and spindles... a very nice safety enhancement!

 

It's no secret that I was waaaaaay behind in producing 6lb sets. However, those days are long gone. In fact, there are currently several hundred rocket sets in stock and shipping out immediately. I'll have 4,000lbs of tooling at the PGI this year as well. There is absolutely no shortage of inventory in stock and ready for same-day shipping.

[dagabu]

Ben,

 

Thanks for the update, good to hear all the backlog is done and over.

 

I have sets from you that are bare and have an aluminum nozzle rammer, Caleb uses SST, that is a big help. Same bronze spindle as far as my side by side comparison shows. The bases is the same or nearly so.

 

I will have to hit up both you and Caleb at PGI and do a side by side with some BP and see which I like better. Do you have a demo set available for that?

[Bensmith]

Hey Dave,

It's quite likely you have sets from several years ago when I was still doing everything manually. At the time I did use brass for the spindles and bare aluminum for everything else. The bronze I've been using for the past few years is a much tougher spindle material while still remaining non-ferrous. The spindle geometry is also quite a bit different (and improved). I'm able to do lots of stuff with full CAD/CAM and CNC than what was ever possible by hand. The reports I've gotten back from guys who had older bare aluminum rocket sets and star plates and then purchased the newer stuff that has been blackened and hardened.... well the common expression is "night and day" different. The current tooling is simply much tougher and much easier to use. I could probably make a set of 1lb Super BP Core Burn available for demo. As it is, I've got around 400 rocket sets in stock of all sizes and flavors.

[Maserface]

I've owned and used both Firesmith and Woodys tooling- I started with Firesmith but when Woody sent me some stuff I immediately sold my Firesmith tools to make more room for Woodys. As far as I could tell, Woodys quality was as good or better, he is able to do custom designs with short turn around, his prices are better (even on custom designs vs stock). Not to mention the intangibles, woody communicates better, and he puts his money where his mouth is. Firesmith, by contrast, only shows up when he's got a sale to run or another excuse to lay out.

[Bensmith]

Mason,

I would encourage you to check out the new tooling. I believe the set you had was from many years ago when everything was being done by hand using bare aluminum and brass. That tooling is comparable to what is currently being produced by other vendors. The new stuff is a huge improvement in engineering, quality, functionality, performance and durability.

 

Now... on to other issues. I don't spend much time on the various boards much. I simply don't have any free time to do so. It's also no secret that I was behind on a few orders. I never denied the fact and did own up to it. Everyone who was affected has been compensated. This was primarily related to 6lb tube supports that, ultimately, I was unable to produce to my standards. The entire project was scrapped and a new version is in the works.

 

My offer to buy you a beer at the PGI still stands.....

[Maserface]

Ben,

 

Its fair to say that I haven't tried the new hardened designs, I'm positive that they perform just fine. And to be fair, the old design that I had performed admirably. You don't make junk, that's for sure.

 

 

As for the rest, if you say that whatever bad dealings you had have been resolved, I believe you. Stuff happens.

 

My vote is still for woody, though.

 

 

I wish I could take you up on that beer, but I don't drink beer, and I won't be at PGI!