NC laqcuer

[otto]

I didn't get caught, but just imagine what someone would have thought seeing me do this . I guess I could have pretended to be a temperamental artist and said (in an french/german/russian accent) "Ziss is bullshice! I vill not paint on this substandard frame!! - diss vood duss not smell right!!".

stix, I believe that should be "schmell gut"...

[stix]

Nice accent stix!!! Russian will do.

 

Don't stress guys, I've put my lack of success down to : lack of attention and stirring!, extremely cold weather last few months, wrong type ping balls ( they were plastic)and a flake type smokeless powder that had a huge amount of graphite coating. After rubbing some through your fingers the fingertips were dark grey and extremely glassy/mirrored. I have to reload some 300wsm for the first time & have not yet brought powder, so I'll wait till I order brass & powder, then try again. Thanks heaps for all the advice

 

No stress Red. My point (along with your original question) is that a servicable NC laquer using ping pong balls, providing you get the right ones (through simple testing), is more than adequate for making ignitors. This is of importance for those of us who don't have the luxury of obtaining 'smokeless powder'.

 

If you're lucky enough to have access to the "real thing" then it shouldn't require too much effort.

[Redrocketman]

I suppose I'm a bit lucky, yes I have access to smokeless. Shooting is another much loved pastime.

[August]

You need to whisk the acetone as you add the smokeless powder, then continue for several minutes until the grains are swollen and don't stick together, then stir every few minutes until dissolved. Should not take more than 15 minutes. If you dump the smokeless in the acetone without stirring or insufficient, it will form a lump and probably never dissolve.

 

There are no restrictions buying it from Firefox. However check the weight of dry powder when you get it. Supposed to be only 25% water weight, mine was over 60%. They did correct their mistake.

Edited September 20, 2016 by August

[dagabu]

Yours was packed in water? Mine was packed in alcohol. I've got two bags sitting on the shelf, I'll have to take a peek and see what they are packed in.

[Boophoenix]

Sometimes you'll find a surprise in Hogden powders, lol.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I guess I'm missing what the 'surprise' is? What am I not seeing?

[OldMarine]

I guess I'm missing what the 'surprise' is? What am I not seeing?

Looks like insoluble material if that's acetone in the cup with it. Dunno.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I guess it kinda looks like pressed pellets of yellow powder? If so not sure what it would be but I wouldn't think NC and/or NG.

[OldMarine]

Boo posted that somewhere before with an explanation but I can't find it. He's in transit to MFF I think, so we'll have to wait for an answer.

[pyrokid]

What is the explanation for the phenomenon of insufficiently stirred powder in lacquer "forming clumps that may never dissolve?"

 

Couldn't the clumps be crushed to expose fresh powder and speed the dissolving?

[OldMarine]

The double base powder forms gelatinous balls that are very hard to dissolve if the mixture isn't stirred constantly. I've tried mashing them with the back of a

spoon and pushing them through a kitchen strainer with little success.

I use an old whisk blade hand crank eggbeater now because my joints can't handle all that whipping anymore.

[Boophoenix]

I was tinkering one day and just grabbed the first smokeless powder I had handy which the label can be seen threw the bottom of the container. The NC oozed away quite quickly exposing the yellow pellets. That round they didn't wanna break down. They eventually did much later in that tinker session or the next. I never did figure out what the yellow material is though. So it was a surprise to me to find it and not knowing what it is seemed like a good reference.

[Mumbles]

I was curious too. I looked up some MSDS for the product and it looks like normal double base smokeless. Mostly NC (>85%) with dinitrotoluene (1-10%), and some "nonhazardous additives". I assumed the nonhazardous additives were things like graphite for flow or processing aids. I have no idea. As far as I could tell it sounds like normal smokeless powder, just extruded into rods or pellets. I have no idea why what looks to be a lot of it wont dissolve. Did they soften at all?

 

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20Files/Smokeless/Hodgdon/Extruded%20Rifle%20Powders/H50BMG%20(AR2218).pdf

[Boophoenix]

Yes upon a second try for giggles things changed a little Mumbles. This is after acetone evaporation

 

I haven't a clue what the yellow is. I just felt I'd share hoping to save someone $20+ grabbing the wrong stuff.

 

For further reference the 4831 is also a cylindrical powder go figure? Looked like lots of graphite in this one but it dissolved fairly well. Some details are a little vague this is from back in April of 2015.

 

 

Maybe there is a list somewhere of shotgun powders which is what I think is the preferred for our uses? I haven't found it yet though. They do tend to be the faster powders it seems. The BMG being one of the slowest I got for some other testing and just tried this for giggles. Speed charts for smokeless powders are readily available on the net if someone with more knowledge of powders and our uses might confirm my suspicion of the faster powders?

[MudDuckPyro79]

50 bmg powder has an extra binder in it to Form cylinders so that the 50 bmg case when reloaded does not pack with powder in a particular spot in the case that why it looks and acts totally different than regular powder. 50bmg powder probably not gonna work for you

[lloyd]

??? Are you talking about cylindrical-grain powders (like rifle powder?) That ordinarily does not have any 'extra binder'. The grains are extruded from (essentially) the same powder as 'flake' forms.

 

Lloyd

[MudDuckPyro79]

No lloyd. Not regular rifle powder only 50 bmg powder it has very large cylinders compared to any other powider iv ever seen. It's kind of like little cylinders for artillery shells but it's only the 50bmg powder that me personally have noticed. There was a write up on that particular powder on a re loaders forum I'm on, I'll try and find it..

[MudDuckPyro79]

And for the thread I just made the nc laquer for making dragons eggs like lloyd and Ned have done and I started with about a cup to a cup and a quarter and started stirring adding in shot shell powder takin from 12 ga. Shells (lil flat disc) and kept it moving, within 4 to 5 mins of stirring the powder was in suspension and looked like rice pudding, I covered the bowl with renolds wrap for 25 ro 30 mins and when I took it off it was completely dissolved no disc of powder, I went to stirring for another few mins and it was a nice cream consistency of nc laquer. I put this in a metal paint tin for about an hour till I was ready for it and when I was ready I stirred it just enough to get it all mixed again. This really was a very simple method after doing it not hard at all, here are my thoughts on it from what iv seen is don't let it settle on the bottom or sides once in acetone it becomes very hard and will never dissolve.

[PeteyPyro]

Ok, I've got 2400, red dot, blue dot, bulkseye (flake powders), and IMR3031 (extruded little sticks). Does anyone have a recommendation as to which I should use for NC extraction? I used these for reloading, but haven't done so for a few years. They still seem to smell ok, and I'd like to use them while they're still good. Recommendations, anyone? Edited July 31, 2017 by PeteyPyro

[PeteyPyro]

Back in the 1970s, I remember that some of my guitar picks were VERY flamable and would burn up in only a second or three, leaving virtually no ash ✴ They would not melt. We would even light them, and toss 'em at each other. I wish I had a thousand of those. They might have made good raw stock for NC extraction. I'm guessing that they went the way of NC film stock due to their pyro nature. Even 70 years ago, you weren't allowed to bring NC film onto trains, planes, etc. This was before the CPSC even existed. The 'good old days!'

<sigh>

[lloyd]

Petey,

All the IMR 4-digit powders are single-base rifle powders. All the 'dot' powders (red,blue,green) are double-based.

 

I prefer my NC lacquer with double-base powders. It suits for all 'normal' NC solution uses, but also makes superior crackle -- better than single-based powders.

 

But, et al, they ALL will work fine. Even crackle made with single-base powders is good enough for all purposes.

 

That said -- if you want a lacquer to 'keep' on the shelf for a time, and use it for priming, etc., then use the IMR powder. The 'dot' powders tend to gel after a few days, and although they can be whipped back to consistency for use, they're never quite the same after that. Just mix up enough of the 'dot' NC lacquer when you wish to make crackle. You won't regret that choice.

 

A 'standard' NC lacquer for pyro use is 10% w/v with acetone. (say 10g of powder in 100ml of acetone).

 

Lloyd

[PeteyPyro]

Thank you, Lloyd.

[NtzPrinter]

I have a couple of questions regarding the typical bismuth trioxide/magnalium crackle star comp bound with NC lacquer. I made one batch which I screen cut to approximately 3mm (1/8") cubes and rolled with BP meal prime. If I ignite a test batch of these stars in a loose container such as a small paper cup about 50% of them blow blind. If I enclose the same amount of primed stars in an enclosed cup (crimped and rolled down) and ignite, I get a great display with most if not all stars igniting and popping. I'm assuming the answer, in this case, is pretty obvious. The stars in the open cup are indeed getting blown out without igniting.

 

What has me perplexed is this. I made a new batch (same comp) but granulated them to a much smaller grain. Before even applying a prime, I decided to try a few to see how they popped. I placed approximately 1/2 teaspoon of the microstar granules into the same size small paper cup. Rolled the cup rim down to contain the stars. Poked a hole for a piece of visco fuse and lit them. The thing went off with a boom like several grams of straight flash powder. My ears are still ringing. I repeated the same test, with the same amount of NC lacquer crackle microstars from the same batch - this time leaving the cup open and unrestricted. When I lit this sample, only a few - literally 5 or 6 granules ignited and popped. Needless to say, this has caused me some concern as to the volatility of these stars.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? If so, any help in understanding what is going on will be greatly appreciated. I'm hesitant to incorporate these granules into any comp matrixes until I have a better understanding of what made them explode with such force. All comps used were bound using home made NC lacquer made from Blue Dot double based smokeless powder and acetone.

 

Any help is appreciated. Thanks

[pyrokid]

I can offer the general advice that incorporation into a matrix will tend to cause a reduction in sensitivity. The phenomenon you observed took place under confinement with no prime. These conditions are far removed from what might be encountered in a matrix star. I would not have qualms about using the granules on the condition that individual, primed granules function as expected.