Cylinder shell builders

[Merlin]

I want to advance to the old style Italian spiked cylinder shells. 3" 4" and maybe 5s eventually . My question is this. Is it possible to get good results meaning good burst and acceptable patterns using only hot BP. I dont know- I could have issues with priming stars but it seems that stars ignite better with only BP rather than flash added. It is just me. I have no qualms concerning flash boosters of various types but I really want to persue straight BP for bursting. I like the deep sound. Is this reasonalble or are burst enhancers still needed for these shells? I can research it but I am hoping for a quick answer before proceeding. I have made a couple small paper ball shells that seemed to work well with only hot BP 5FA. Thanks for any direction.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Merlin

[dagabu]

Ill write more tomorrow but I''l say this up front: If its a traditional Italian shell, *there is no booster.

Edited July 14, 2016 by dagabu

[OldMarine]

I'm putting cylinder headings on my rockets using only BP and am quite happy with the burst.

[dagabu]

I want to advance to the old style Italian spiked cylinder shells. 3" 4" and maybe 5s eventually . My question is this. Is it possible to get good results meaning good burst and acceptable patterns using only hot BP. I dont know- I could have issues with priming stars but it seems that stars ignite better with only BP rather than flash added. It is just me. I have no qualms concerning flash boosters of various types but I really want to persue straight BP for bursting. I like the deep sound. Is this reasonalble or are burst enhancers still needed for these shells? I can research it but I am hoping for a quick answer before proceeding. I have made a couple small paper ball shells that seemed to work well with only hot BP 5FA. Thanks for any direction.

 

Without going in to a lot of background, the Italian shells came into being in the mid 19th century, they are not very old at all, ball shells predate them by centuries!

 

The Italians used paper and string because they were common items and were discarded, allowing them to reuse them for shells. The real trick was to confine the contents appropriately to allow the black powder gasses to build up and turn the cylinder into a "ball" shape before breaking out and throwing the contents out.

 

Hot black powder of the appropriate size was found to provide the gas pressure and the paper, string, pasted paper, outer wrap, all provide the needed confinement. The real trick is using the proper spiking pattern for the contents and the correct string for the size of the shell.

 

Using a double 8ply cotton string on a 3" shell will still give you good results while a double 1.5mm hemp on the same shell will over-confine it and in my own experiences, hose break of bow tie break every time.

 

Use the Fulcanelli Papers to make your shells, you are almost guaranteed to make nice shells using this method.

Edited July 13, 2016 by dagabu

[Merlin]

Thanks. That's what I suspected and hoped. So far I have only made plastic ball 3 and 4" and after the fours were so loud gave up on the idea of 5". The added booster is just too loud and the blinding flash too distracting. I will persue cylinder shells though I will make a few paper balls. I see no reason they shouldn't perform with only BP if properly pasted. The clyinders are better for inserts like box stars. Free of flash at last!

Thanks for the comment about cotton string for some reason I thought you had to use hemp.

Time to study Fulcaneli. Thanks

I do have a question about gummed tape. I use the brown type but it's easy to get lost in the pattern when switching layers. I wonder if using a layer of brown followed by a layer of white Kraft will work? Never heard of anyone using white Kraft. It would make it easier to follow I think.

[dagabu]

White kraft has been used by many, no problems switching.

 

Another note: If using paper hemispheres, you just add more layers of kraft to the shell to confine the contents, plastic is, in my opinion, too hard to work with and gives poor performance without a lot of pasting kraft on top. The issue id that there just isn't a lot of space left to add a lot of tape to the shell and those that use plastic are usually hyper concerned about money in the first place.

 

This makes cylinder shell making even more appetizing IMHO. Cotton twine, grocery bags (paper) and old book covers are about all you need for non-chem materials.

[pyrokid]

White kraft has been used by many, no problems switching.

 

Another note: If using paper hemispheres, you just add more layers of kraft to the shell to confine the contents, plastic is, in my opinion, too hard to work with and gives poor performance without a lot of pasting kraft on top. The issue id that there just isn't a lot of space left to add a lot of tape to the shell and those that use plastic are usually hyper concerned about money in the first place.

 

This makes cylinder shell making even more appetizing IMHO. Cotton twine, grocery bags (paper) and old book covers are about all you need for non-chem materials.

What is the preferred source for cost effective cotton twine?

[OldMarine]

I like hemp twine better than cotton. It seems to have more tensile strength without the bulk and bites into the casing very well. Wal-Mart and Hobby Lobby both carry plenty of different twines so you can experiment. Linen is very nice too!

[wildcherryxoxo]

I'm curious dag, what year in the 1900s specifically were cylinder shells invented ?

[mikeee]

 

Without going in to a lot of background, the Italian shells came into being in the mid 1900's, they are not very old at all, ball shells predate them by centuries!

 

The Italians used paper and string because they were common items and were discarded, allowing them to reuse them for shells. The real trick was to confine the contents appropriately to allow the black powder gasses to build up and turn the cylinder into a "ball" shape before breaking out and throwing the contents out.

 

Hot black powder of the appropriate size was found to provide the gas pressure and the paper, string, pasted paper, outer wrap, all provide the needed confinement. The real trick is using the proper spiking pattern for the contents and the correct string for the size of the shell.

 

Using a double 8ply cotton string on a 3" shell will still give you good results while a double 1.5mm hemp on the same shell will over-confine it and in my own experiences, hose break of bow tie break every time.

 

Use the Fulcanelli Papers to make your shells, you are almost guaranteed to make nice shells using this method.

So how many years or decades before the Italian style cylinder shell earned it's respect in the industry?

I see this quite often when someone develops a new or different technique, some of the pyro status quo shuns the new technique.

[OldMarine]

I'm curious dag, what year in the 1900s specifically were cylinder shells invented ?

I read that the Italians began building cylinders in the 1830s but didn't perfect the system until the early 1900s during the flight from Europe to America. Apparently the more abundant materials and need of gainful employment led to the rapid growth of "Italian" fireworks manufacture. I think I read this in a book "Bombs Bursting in Air" but I'll need to dig it out to be sure.

[dagabu]

I'm curious dag, what year in the 1900s specifically were cylinder shells invented ?

I take it you haven't read the Fulcanelli papers? The history is included there.

[dagabu]

My bad, I ment 19th century, not 1900s, good catch OM! Edited July 13, 2016 by dagabu

[wildcherryxoxo]

Alright, I thought there was something amiss, because my copy of Pyrotechnics by Kentish (published in 1878) has a section dedicated to cylinder shells. I wondered if there might have been a similar misunderstanding in published literature somewhere.

Carry on then...

[WonderBoy]

For clarity Dag, I believe you are talking about "Italo-American" style shells? It is a rather broad statement to say that traditional Italian shells use no booster.

 

Merlin, are you using commercial BP? 5fa would be rather small, you want something that you can load in your canulle and stay solidly in place, the burst is not separate from the stars like in a ball shell.

 

Also, I recommend trying doubled 12 strand cotton string. I've tried 8 strand and broke it every time while spiking. 12 strand cotton stretches out to be about the same diameter of 1mm hemp, and similar strength. It does strrrettcchh, but you get used to it. You can get cotton string pretty cheaply on Amazon or Uline.

 

 

WB

[Merlin]

For clarity Dag, I believe you are talking about "Italo-American" style shells? It is a rather broad statement to say that traditional Italian shells use no booster.

 

Merlin, are you using commercial BP? 5fa would be rather small, you want something that you can load in your canulle and stay solidly in place, the burst is not separate from the stars like in a ball shell.

 

Also, I recommend trying doubled 12 strand cotton string. I've tried 8 strand and broke it every time while spiking. 12 strand cotton stretches out to be about the same diameter of 1mm hemp, and similar strength. It does strrrettcchh, but you get used to it. You can get cotton string pretty cheaply on Amazon or Uline.

 

I used 5FA in a 2.5 paper ball shell to see how well BP only would work. Worked quite well. I screen my BP to 2,4 and 5FA - anything smaller for prime. I had just received hemp but folks say cotton is better. No problem getting cotton!

WB

[dagabu]

For clarity Dag, I believe you are talking about "Italo-American" style shells? It is a rather broad statement to say that traditional Italian shells use no booster.

 

Merlin, are you using commercial BP? 5fa would be rather small, you want something that you can load in your canulle and stay solidly in place, the burst is not separate from the stars like in a ball shell.

 

Also, I recommend trying doubled 12 strand cotton string. I've tried 8 strand and broke it every time while spiking. 12 strand cotton stretches out to be about the same diameter of 1mm hemp, and similar strength. It does strrrettcchh, but you get used to it. You can get cotton string pretty cheaply on Amazon or Uline.

 

 

WB

 

WB,

 

It's clear that I may be lacking documentation for traditional Italian shells. There seems to be little written and even less anecdotal information about the traditional Italian shell manufacturer due to the tight lipped nature of the old masters. I would love to get my hands of other papers or books from that era describing the way the shells were made but lacking them, I think I may just change my statement to no boosters in Italo-American style shells.

 

I am not saying it hasn't/can't/won't be used but its not traditional.

[dagabu]

So how many years or decades before the Italian style cylinder shell earned it's respect in the industry?

I see this quite often when someone develops a new or different technique, some of the pyro status quo shuns the new technique.

 

True that! I still make all sorts of modifications to my Italo-American style shells that make the masters toes curl! Boosters, non-traditional manufacturing like gluing the end disks in starting with the spoletteed end disk instead of ending with it. I even punch a hole through an end disk after its all completed and push fast paper match into the canulle to mount it to a rocket.

 

While I have no qualms with others calling it non-traditional (I agree), the modifications often work for my needs at the time.

[dagabu]

For clarity Dag, I believe you are talking about "Italo-American" style shells? It is a rather broad statement to say that traditional Italian shells use no booster.

 

Merlin, are you using commercial BP? 5fa would be rather small, you want something that you can load in your canulle and stay solidly in place, the burst is not separate from the stars like in a ball shell.

 

Also, I recommend trying doubled 12 strand cotton string. I've tried 8 strand and broke it every time while spiking. 12 strand cotton stretches out to be about the same diameter of 1mm hemp, and similar strength. It does strrrettcchh, but you get used to it. You can get cotton string pretty cheaply on Amazon or Uline.

 

 

WB

 

This is another of those interesting dynamics that come in to play between pyros. My hands are not capable of breaking a double 8 ply spiking, at least no the current poly-cotton offerings from Amazon or Uline (I do have both and it looks like they both actually came from T.W. Evans Cordage) .

 

For those looking for cotton twine, The Home Depot of all places has very favorable prices on it. T.W. Evans Cordage

Edited July 13, 2016 by dagabu

[Sparx88]

I was using just paulownia and erc bp in various grain sizes both straight and on grass seed and or rice hulls. Though decent, I found that boosting with 5% kno3 "slow flash" 63/25/12 or your favorite ratio did a world of good on 2 and 3" can shells. I get round uniform breaks that amaze me every time. It's hard to believe that a shell shaped like this and built this way would break so beautifully but they do. But every stage of building needs 100% attention to detail. The burst has to be in the center. Anything you use to pack in the stars or "fill in" around them should be a slower burning straight bp like "green mix" polverone etc. mill dust or very finely riced. I found that this is the part that really helps light the stars. I tend to ramble on so I'll leave it at that.

[flying fish]

I do remember seeing an old video of an Italian fireworks factory where they were pouring a mysterious gray powder into their shells...

 

But most people don't for cylinder shells because it's not needed, and in multis and it can be detrimental to the spolette of the next break or its probability of taking fire. I use 2 strands of pasted flax or hemp twine (the stuff that's approximately 20lb test). Do that and you can get powerful breaks without any kind of booster and average BP.

Edited July 13, 2016 by flying fish

[Merlin]

Thanks for all the insight. Lot of info here that's very useful. Just waiting on end disc and some paper. I know it will be learning process and take several attempts to get a proper cylinder. Thanks to everyone.

[OldMarine]

Just got my 4"-5" formers + 2 insert formers from Mikeee and I'm tickled pink! I've got some 3lb rockets just begging for a big ol' cylinder heading.

[dagabu]

Keep an eye on the Allpax Gasket cutters on eBay. A cheap way to make your own disks.

[OldMarine]

Thanks for all the insight. Lot of info here that's very useful. Just waiting on end disc and some paper. I know it will be learning process and take several attempts to get a proper cylinder. Thanks to everyone.

 

I built a couple of practice shells using inert aquarium gravel then built a couple with actual burst using kitty litter as "stars" before I put my lovingly made stars in there. I launched my clay filled ones during daylight so I could see the burst. I must admit that those clay/dust bursts got my heart thumping!