safe star formulas

[bigbuck]

ok after reading forever and a day i have come to realize that i am still really a greenhorn at this!! ,i have had success at rolling d1 glitter and red stars, I cannot hold any more star formulas in my head !! I'm going to ask a question and I do not even know if the answer exist, where can I find SAFE realitivly easy rolled star formulas and primes that do not contain chlorates??? looking to start off with the basics, I have done so much reading and it seems there are a wide range in formulas, I would like to find 4 or 5 different ones to start with,,any help will be appericated,thanks

[Mumbles]

You might want to look into the Veline system for colored stars. They're not the best, but the color is decent, they're pretty safe, well tested, compatible, and all burn at similar rates. I assume since you mention chlorates, you're looking for colors. Except for a few old exhibition silver streamers, there are very few formulas for chlorate based streamers, glitters, or other similar type effects out there.

 

Chlorate stars tend to be better with organic colored stars, while perchlorate stars are better with metallic fueled stars.

 

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to/color-fireworks-stars.asp

[dagabu]

I agree with Mum, I don't have a single chlorate comp in my book they are all perc or nitrate based with 1 AP comp.

[AzoMittle]

ok after reading forever and a day i have come to realize that i am still really a greenhorn at this!! ,i have had success at rolling d1 glitter and red stars, I cannot hold any more star formulas in my head !! I'm going to ask a question and I do not even know if the answer exist, where can I find SAFE realitivly easy rolled star formulas and primes that do not contain chlorates??? looking to start off with the basics, I have done so much reading and it seems there are a wide range in formulas, I would like to find 4 or 5 different ones to start with,,any help will be appericated,thanks

 

For BigBuck:

I remember the exact moment I had that same realization; don't worry, you're on the right path, keep reading and practicing and talking with others and reading some more (even when it doesn't make sense) and the pieces will start to fall into place, I promise. Oh, and there are certain 'patterns' for compositions, you will start to notice 'oh hey this formula looks a whole lot like this other formula'.

 

There is really only a handful of formulas you should need to memorize, the most important being 75:15:10. Everything else, write it down somewhere.

 

I agree with Mumbles that the Veline system will probably be your best starting point. You should also look into JOPETE's Spanish Info, the parlon formulas (ruby red, emerald green, Steve Majdali's Parlon Purple, etc), and anything following the general perchlorate + magnalium + red gum system (similar to Veline's). Make sure you look into properly coating your magnalium/magnesium/iron too.

 

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/colored-screen-sliced-rubber-stars.asp

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/10285-miscellaneous-misc-pyro-file-english-conversion-from-spanish-jopetes/

 

For Mumbles & Dagabu:

I loooooove questions like these, they are the exact reason I am working on building a comprehensive database of compositions, formulas, and calculations. At first I thought this would be one of those rare unicorn moments where I would get to disagree with Mumbles (and have data to back it up!), but reading closer I agree. The chlorates are not all that common in glitter/streamer/similar compositions; however, chlorate compositions themselves are not uncommon, most of them are older though (think Weingart or Kentish era). I currently have 1216 compositions in my database, 293 of them contain potassium chlorate, 241 of those are for colored stars, the remaining 52 are streamer/glitter or misc (rockets, flares, gerbs, fountains, etc). A majority of both the chlorate and AP comps are blues.

 

Oxidizer name, Number of formulas containing that chemical, Number of colored star formulas containing that chemical

Potassium Perchlorate, 303, 182

Ammonium Perchlorate, 59, 46

Barium Perchlorate, 3, 3

Potassium Chlorate, 293, 241

Strontium Chlorate, 2, 2

Barium Chlorate, 27, 26

Sodium Chlorate, 3, 0

Copper Chlorate, 4, 4

Potassium Nitrate, 341, 41

Ammonium Nitrate, 2, 1

Strontium Nitrate, 122, 113

Barium Nitrate, 178, 114

Sodium Nitrate, 33, 18

Calcium Nitrate, 1, 1

Copper Nitrate, 1, 1

Tetraamine Copper Nitrate, 2, 2

Tetraamine Copper Sulphate, 3, 3

Tetraamine Copper Chloride, 1, 1

Tetranitrocarbazole, 1, 0

Lead Nitrate, 9, 4

Barium Bromate, 1, 1

Barium Chromate, 45, 0

Copper Chromate, 1, 1

Lead Chromate, 8, 0

Ammonium Picrate, 6, 0

Potassium Permanganate, 6, 0

PTFE, 10, 0

Kel-F Wax, 6, 0

Polyethylene Oxide, 1, 0

Black Powder, 120, 8

Smokeless Powder, 1, 1

Edited July 11, 2016 by AzoMittle

[bigbuck]

thanks for info, i am trying to stay away from chlorates for the simple fact is that i have read alot about how senstive they are, i have been trying to stick to david blessers book "round stars and shells" lots of good info in there but lots of chlorate based stars, i just need 5 or 6 formulas to start with and maybe a few different glitters and build from there

[AzoMittle]

thanks for info, i am trying to stay away from chlorates for the simple fact is that i have read alot about how senstive they are, i have been trying to stick to david blessers book "round stars and shells" lots of good info in there but lots of chlorate based stars, i just need 5 or 6 formulas to start with and maybe a few different glitters and build from there

 

Please start by reading the links from Mumbles and myself, they will cover your colored star needs. The JOPETE's file touches on just about everything.

 

D1 (alt. aka N1), Robert Winokur's glitters, Tiger Tail, C6, C8, Majestic Arching Transformation, and Fireflies on Cocaine will cover your glitter and streamer needs.

 

Skylighter should have how-to articles on just about any construction topic, here are also all the different basic charts.

 

 

 

By the by, I find the best keyword for google is "pyro" and "forum", "fireworks" tends to return results about either commercial product, a professional display, or idiots on youtube. A majority of the formulas submitted by users here to the compositions/formulas subforum are tried, tested, and work well too. Search around, write things down, go with what you can do.

Edited July 11, 2016 by AzoMittle

[MrB]

I loooooove questions like these, they are the exact reason I am working on building a comprehensive database of compositions, formulas, and calculations. At first I thought this would be one of those rare unicorn moments where I would get to disagree with Mumbles (and have data to back it up!), but reading closer I agree. The chlorates are not all that common in glitter/streamer/similar compositions; however, chlorate compositions themselves are not uncommon, most of them are older though (think Weingart or Kentish era). I currently have 1216 compositions in my database, 293 of them contain potassium chlorate, 241 of those are for colored stars, the remaining 52 are streamer/glitter or misc (rockets, flares, gerbs, fountains, etc). A majority of both the chlorate and AP comps are blues.

 

Dumb ass question, but i like being lazy, so i'll ask it anyway. Is this dbs available anywhere? 1216, is a quite large collection, which i wouldn't mind having a copy of, or at least online access to.

Sounds like a lot of effort spent, to not have it shared would possibly be a shame.

B!

[bigbuck]

i am interested also, i have a very limited amount of time to search online,but i find myself spending every free moment on this forum,thanks to everyone for the help by the way!!! also are the veline stars good ones?? i mean will the average person be able to notice any difference? I'm sure for those of you that have been at this for a long time would definatly be able to tell, i guess I'm just looking for a place to start and build on that knowledge, i have the shell construction part down, i just want to keep my hands in tact and be safe as possible

Edited July 12, 2016 by bigbuck

[OldMarine]

I like Veline stars because they're designed to work as a system. No one overpowers the others so you can mix them up without worrying about washing out any colors. They're not as brilliant as other stars but I've heard no complaints from the peanut gallery.

[AzoMittle]

 

Dumb ass question, but i like being lazy, so i'll ask it anyway. Is this dbs available anywhere? 1216, is a quite large collection, which i wouldn't mind having a copy of, or at least online access to.

Sounds like a lot of effort spent, to not have it shared would possibly be a shame.

B!

Not yet, sooner or later though.

[bigbuck]

can you roll color changing stars with the Veline system and if so do you have to prime each layer?

Edited July 12, 2016 by bigbuck

[AzoMittle]

can you roll color changing stars with the Veline system and if so do you have to prime each layer?

Yes, they are all bound with water (dextrin) and contain compatible chemicals (e.g. they are carbonate colored, magnalium/perchlorate fueled). And no you do not need to prime each layer since they are all relatively the same heat, you do need to prime the outermost layer with the Veline's superprime and then BP though.

 

Make sure to dry them thoroughly (weigh them, when the weight stops moving they are dry) and to roll in small increments in between drying. You can also roll a dark prime/relay in between colors to get a more even transition.

 

Takeo Shimizu's Changing Relay #1

35....Potassium perchlorate

35....Potassium nitrate

24....Charcoal, Airfloat

06....SGRS (or dextrin)

 

Takeo Shimizu's Changing Relay #2

81....Potassium perchlorate

13....Red gum

06....SGRS (or dextrin)

Edited July 12, 2016 by AzoMittle

[bigbuck]

another thing i did not see in skylighters tutorial is mixing instructions, should these formulas be ball milled? except aluminum of course and if so how long? you all have been great help here by the way

[pyrokid]

I can't think of a color comp that is ball milled. All the components should be a fine powder. In many cases milling them would be hazardous on account of the perchlorate/fuel mixture.

 

Glitters are generally negatively affected by excessive ball milling (without the metal), and I've never felt the need to mill them.

 

Charcoal comps can be milled to achieve denser and shorter lived firedust.

[Arthur]

IMO You could start with one star type then progress to the others. Very seriously I'd suggest starting with charcoal stars then progressing to colour stars probably via glitter and streamers. With careful planning you can make charcoal stars with the same ingredients as you make BP. Add Ti sponge and you can have slow gold, add atomised aluminium and you can have glitter (N1 or D1). Sometimes you find just the right supplier with OK service time but they don't all have every possible chemical, some chemicals may be available locally from other industry based suppliers. (Atomised metals are used in resin casting for weight and appearance -enough Al Cu or bronze powder and the moulding looks like a casting).

[Arthur]

PS

 

If you want a SAFE hobby please take up knitting or crochet (with a blunt hook!). There are some serious hazards in hobby pyro that you need to understand, minimise and mitigate. Most years someone gets hurt doing pyro. Do lots of reading, learning and thinking before you work with chems. Reading some H&S*, OHSA*, Worksafe* etc books on risk and hazard and their minimising and mitigation could well keep you comfortable for years.

 

*Government agencies in different places but somewhat similar. While your hobby may not be a "workplace" there is no harm in learning to keep safe then scaling it down to your size of operation.

[bigbuck]

yep just trying to stay safe, its my # 1 goal

[braddsn]

FWIW, the Jopetes PDF is hard to beat. All colors are vivid and bright, and are designed to work together. Burn rates are the same, and the PDF is very efficient in the way chemicals are used. I typically build 500+ shells per year and I solely use the Jopetes PDF for all of them, with the exception of a few other comps (TT, Slow Gold, Bleser Blonde, N-1). As for the Veline system, I cannot comment because I have not tried it.

[bigbuck]

is it best to roll veline stars using only water as a solvent? I have read other posts where different solvents were used, i am following formulas to the t on skylighters page,thanks

Edited July 25, 2016 by bigbuck

[Seymour]

I think it is best to use only water.

 

It takes a bit longer for the stars to dry, but that should not be a problem. I'm not in denial about the fact that impatience is a universal human trait, but in this hobby it should be kept in check. When you rush things, obviously mistakes are more likely, and this is what worries me about people being reluctant to wait long enough for stars to dry that have been rolled with water.

 

Of course I was too impatient as a teenager starting to make fireworks, so I do understand the feeling.

 

Water is also the lowest cost and safest solvent at our disposal. Of course for various things I do use other solvents. I have rolled Ammonium perchlorate stars with MgAl, bound in NC and then rolled Potassium nitrate streamer over the top (with a KP buffer layer) and in this case the AP and buffer layer used Acetone as the solvent. I use organic solvents to incorporate wax or petroleum jelly in to mixes for pressing and so many other things.

 

But for most stars, I think 100% water is the best option.

[Arthur]

Water is a good solvent to work with, sometimes some alcohol is added to help the minimal water actually wet everything easily.

[bigbuck]

ok great, i just tried to roll a batch with just plain water, at first i made a globby mess had to regroup and start over and coated shot with bentonite clay and they picked up very well, rolled them to about 1/4 and set aside to dry but they were a bit crumbly when wet is that normal?

[AzoMittle]

ok great, i just tried to roll a batch with just plain water, at first i made a globby mess had to regroup and start over and coated shot with bentonite clay and they picked up very well, rolled them to about 1/4 and set aside to dry but they were a bit crumbly when wet is that normal?

 

Yes that is normal. They will harden as they dry, to rock hard. Weigh them just after rolling, then every day or so afterwards, when the weight stops moving they are dry. You want to roll in small increments so that the outer layer doesn't dry and turn into a 'shell' while the inside is still wet, locking the moisture in.

 

Rolling takes a bit of practice. In my personal opinion, the best way to learn when (and how) to add water or to add more powder is to pick up your stars and feel them. Ask yourself the following: How moist are they? Are they the color of the dry powder, or are they darker? Do you have loose powder at the bottom of your bowl or do the stars want to pick up more? They should never be wet enough that you are getting a glue like paste running off but never dry enough that you can feel powder rubbing off either. Small increments and patience are key. Sometimes you may need to let them sit for a few minutes between increments so that the moisture can even out, like a sponge, if you notice them sticking together add more powder. You want to add just enough powder to coat the outside of the stars and no more, it is a light dusting like using flour on a lump of dough to keep it from sticking.

[bigbuck]

yeah i think it will take a bit of practice to get the feel for it, i also tried blessers blond streamer, first go with 50/50 water/alachol and they spiked so bad they looked like black berries and had to start over, so i read back through blessers book to try and fix the problem and bumped the solvent up to 70/30 alc/water and that seemed to help spiking problem some, I am worried I am getting them too wet though, in his book he said to keep them as wet as possible to prevent spiking, I rolled them to about 3/16 and they look almost like they are glazed over so I stopped to let them dry overnight, they just seemed to grow at a very slow rate