Priming stars

[lloyd]

Dan Dolata wrote that book in a fit of pique when he was being slowly deemed not worthy of tenure at the college where he was teaching.

 

He submitted the drafts to a number of fairly well-known pyros. I won't "incriminate" any of them except myself.

 

We all commented and suggested significant changes, including the entire removal of the section on GLASS coffee-pot CIA powder! There are also incorrect formulae and bad compounding advises in the book. (No... I don't have references in front of me. I'd have to read it 'yet again' to refresh myself. But please appreciate that I've been down this path a number of times, and wouldn't say what I'm saying here unless I'd already confirmed these issues.)

 

He acknowledged every suggestion every 'guest editor' made, then didn't change a word! His book is full of dangerous advice, and now, he won't even TALK to the folks who tried to help him make it safer.

 

No... it's one of the most-dangerous 'textbooks' out there, on par with the "anarchist's cookbook". Really. (And I LIKED Dan... this is not an 'enemy' relationship. We were friends until he finally just 'dropped out' of society, after having lost tenure at his university.)

 

LLoyd

[asdercks]

Wow did not know that, thanks for explaining it and I know you wouldn't recommend to stay away from that book if you weren't sure what you're talking about.

[ExplosiveCoek]

Braddsn, just a small heads-up. Thanks for all the tips.

 

I did some comparisons to rule out any issues, tried at first with drying (on my already 'dry' stars). They still lost some moisture, but not so much. Weighed everything until only small 1-2 g changes occurred. This was nog so much on 3kg batches. Dried in full hot sun, so I'm really sure everything was dry.

 

 

This was the comparison: first one was willow with 'old priming'. Relatively fast meal powder priming. 5 g of Apertura, 4 layers pasting

Second one was reprimed fuchsia with extra atomized/granular Al% for tail to homemade dandelion + Ti core. I always had quite good ignition with these fuchsia stars, but now it was a complete round sphere ignition. Finally!! 8 g Apertura, 4 layers pasting total

 

You see that, even though everyone always mentions willow to be easy ignitable, and color stars to be hard to ignite, I quite often encountered otherwise.

https://youtu.be/m-Edcg_3Odw

 

Was quite satisfied with that lasts one.

 

 

Based on these results I reprimed everything and loaded up some standardized stargun cake test's. Two scoops of pulverone with standard home made scoop. Three stars in each tube, except the last one. I had already quite good results before on 'softer' star gun's, so the make it more extreme I put a paper plug on top of everything to create extra 'insane' pressure.

 

Had perfect ignition on everything, so I'm looking forward to building shell's with these stars. Fingers crossed for the same performance of the stars when used in shell's.

https://youtu.be/5CEyGMPBbak

 

As always I'm curious what you guy's think, and if you have some more tip's and trick's for me.

 

[braddsn]

Great job Coek! Looks like you have your 100% ignition. What is "Apertura"? I can only assume this is booster (a version of flash powder)? What is the formula for it? I use a slow booster 35g KNO3, 35g KCLO4, 30g Dark AL.

[ExplosiveCoek]

Thanks! Apertura = the Spanish booster, it's the same formula as you mentioned . It's a bit more forgiving than regular 7:3 is, but needs a little extra scoop for the same power boost, which makes sense if you think about it.

I also tested it in 3'' shell's. Used 4 g of it in 3'' shell's, but didn't like the break it gave me yet. I only paste small amounts, so therefore my flash booster needs to be upgraded sometimes.

Edited June 21, 2016 by ExplosiveCoek

[braddsn]

Yes Coek, I have found the same thing... the spanish booster is more forgiving. Recently I have been adding more for hard breaks. 6g in a 3" shell, 8g in a 4", 15g in a 5", and up to 30g in a 6".

[ExplosiveCoek]

Ah thanks a lot, that is really helpful!

 

I found the same thing now, 8 g for 4''. And was thinking about increasing for 3'' indeed, the 4 g was break too small for my tasting.

It's funny to see that it is almost double the amount that I used for 7:3 booster in a shell.

Have you already tried the 30 g in a 6'' shell? I used roughly 12 g hot flash last time, and got quite a decent break. Could've been a little bit bigger though.

[MadMat]

This is my latest shell. It looks like I finally have decent ignition. The shell is a 3" with my first attempt at creating a shape (a red ring). Unfortunately, the blue and silver stars were too small and burned up too fast.

this is my first video upload, hope it works

 

https://video-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/13521303_259862307705272_887084318_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjMwMCwicmxhIjo1MTIsInZlbmNvZGVfdGFnIjoic3ZlX3NkIn0%3D&rl=300&vabr=48&oh=46275e4c55b89e54ceb647da00dd6f5b&oe=576B3FD2

Edited June 22, 2016 by MadMat

[OldMarine]

Looked good! You do need to turn your phone sideways while videoing though so we can watch it full screen.

Edited June 22, 2016 by OldMarine

[MadMat]

It was actually taken with a crappy camera.

[OldMarine]

It was actually taken with a crappy camera.

 

Hmm, looked like a narrow camera vid. My bad! Still a good shell

[MadMat]

Thanks. This is the best ignition I've gotten so far with that red formula. So, that part made me happy. I am thinking that I didn't get a perfect ring because my stars were cut and somewhat irregularly shaped after priming. So, I'll bet they had some weird trajectories when flying around. I've got to get going on a rolling machine soon.

[OldMarine]

I'm just starting to cut and press stars. I've got a 1/2" plate I just got from Caleb and I'm saving for a 1/4" plate as well. I can't afford a roller nor budget the time to hand roll right now so cut and pressed will have to suffice.

[MadMat]

I'm actually trying to decide between a star plate or rolling machine. Pretty sure it's going to be a rolling machine. But I am very happy that I have my priming issues licked. Thanks for the thumbs up on the shell .

Edited June 23, 2016 by MadMat

[OldMarine]

Amen! Go as far as you can as soon as you can equipment wise because it is a permanent fixture, unlike chems and whatnot that are a running expense.

[braddsn]

A star roller is the way to go! That way you can have perfectly round stars, AND you can roll color changing stars! My star roller cost me a total of 35.00, and it has rolled stars for over 1,000 shells so far, and is still going strong. Here is a picture of it. Simple design. Very effective.

 

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/image/2860-homemade-star-roller/

Edited June 23, 2016 by braddsn

[ExplosiveCoek]

Braddsn, just a small heads-up. Thanks for all the tips.

 

I did some comparisons to rule out any issues, tried at first with drying (on my already 'dry' stars). They still lost some moisture, but not so much. Weighed everything until only small 1-2 g changes occurred. This was nog so much on 3kg batches. Dried in full hot sun, so I'm really sure everything was dry.

 

 

This was the comparison: first one was willow with 'old priming'. Relatively fast meal powder priming. 5 g of Apertura, 4 layers pasting

Second one was reprimed fuchsia with extra atomized/granular Al% for tail to homemade dandelion + Ti core. I always had quite good ignition with these fuchsia stars, but now it was a complete round sphere ignition. Finally!! 8 g Apertura, 4 layers pasting total

 

You see that, even though everyone always mentions willow to be easy ignitable, and color stars to be hard to ignite, I quite often encountered otherwise.

https://youtu.be/m-Edcg_3Odw

 

Was quite satisfied with that lasts one.

 

 

Based on these results I reprimed everything and loaded up some standardized stargun cake test's. Two scoops of pulverone with standard home made scoop. Three stars in each tube, except the last one. I had already quite good results before on 'softer' star gun's, so the make it more extreme I put a paper plug on top of everything to create extra 'insane' pressure.

 

Had perfect ignition on everything, so I'm looking forward to building shell's with these stars. Fingers crossed for the same performance of the stars when used in shell's.

https://youtu.be/5CEyGMPBbak

 

As always I'm curious what you guy's think, and if you have some more tip's and trick's for me.

 

 

So to give an update, did the same reprime on the willow stars as I did with the fuchsia ones.

 

https://youtu.be/f_tLD8pp0MQ

 

Was a bit bright outside still, nevetheless very happy due to this break. Even added more FP for the break, pasting was the same as with previous shell.

[ExplosiveCoek]

Wow, really.. No reaction at all.

 

For me this was quite a revelation, and as I hear a lot of people complaining about blind stars I expected at least some reactions. I was really happy to have finally figured out what no one could tell me apparently over the past 10 years, and just wanted to share it.

It sure seems that everyone apparently already knew the issue that was at hand, and didn't want to speak up. At least that is the impression I got right now.

 

Really motivates me to keep posting and visiting these kind of forums these day's, NOT. It kinda saddens me that if one shows his progress, it is just ignored.

Maybe the most annoying part is that I see all the random topics with spam where there are a lot of reactions.. I thought this was a firework forum, hmm must be wrong.

 

Well that's the end of the rant, good luck out there guy's.

[Chunn7704]

Awesome job buddy. So what was the fix, slow final prime or fast ball milled prime? Shells look perfect

[OldMarine]

I suspect that many, like me, check active threads on their phone. This makes it harder to check inactive threads which may explain how your thread got almost 1300 views yet far fewer replies. Even if someone plans on a reply once they get to a larger screen the topic won't show as new so they forget. Just my personal experience.

[ExplosiveCoek]

Well you might be right OldMarine, just had to get it of my chest .

 

@Chunn, I used barely milled meal powder this time, you could even see some of the coarse KNO3 sometimes in the prime. This made it a bit rougher too, although I expect the KNO3 to dissolve anyway due to the water in the star/ and the sprinkle/spray application anyway. Furthermore primed the outer layer with an excess of prime, so there is a lot of rough surface and loose powder on the stars that grips fire more easily I guess.

This last improved was mentioned by a lot of my friends that made a really big difference for them too regarding ignition. Also read about this in "Lecture Notes for Pyrotechnic Chemistry [Journal Of Pyrotechnics] - K. Kosanke, et al., (2004) WW". Everywhere it was mentioned: last steps of powder should be applied with an excess. So I guess the dusty surface is a big influence in the ignition of the stars.

 

Makes me wonder though, how sometimes people only use pumped stars with no prime at all, and still have good ignition.

[lloyd]

"Makes me wonder though, how sometimes people only use pumped stars with no prime at all, and still have good ignition."

----------------------

Some stars just don't need any prime. Among them are most willows, and other charcoal-tailed stars, and some glitters.

 

As a matter of habit, and not always of necessity, I prime everything. That's an offshoot of having run a high-output manufacturing company, and having to rely on the work of folks we'd rather not have had making such decisions. It's better to use the same procedure every time, on every star, then have the workers make a mistake and condemn a production-lot of shells or mines. ONE lot of mines for (say) Disney might use 300-400lb of stars, and have time-critical delivery criteria. Making them again simply was NOT an option!

 

BTW... that characteristic of not requiring a prime doesn't just apply to pumped stars. The same compositions react the same way (usually) if rolled or cut.

 

LLoyd

[ExplosiveCoek]

Thanks for the input, Lloyd, but this is exactly what has got me wondering.

 

I used exactly the same willow stars in my first 4'' shell (with even 1 g flash booster less), but as you can see they blew blind. Even with (relatively fast) meal priming on top of them.

After repriming them they worked well, just as the fuchsia shell did. I used slow meal and really dusty outer layer.

 

So especially since a lot of people are mentioning that willows are easy to ignite, I've always found it to be one of the most difficult compositions to light. I was sure they were dry, put them out in direct sun eventually and checked their weight. It is really strange for me that I had to go through so much issues just to get these kind of stars to light.

 

Glitter has always been one of the best ignitable comp's for me, which makes sense due to the dross formation. On the other hand, peony's also lit quite well. But these damn willows (and other shell's) just kept blowing (partially) blind. If it is due to the rolled stars being to smooth that they didn't ignite first for me, than especially pumped stars would have that problem too.

 

This is just wat bothers me. It is working now, but I want to know why .. Part of my nature I guess. I'm just really curious about why they wouldn't light at first..

[Wiley]

Could be the fact that they're rolled stars. All of my charcoal stars are cut, and not primed. That leaves them with really sharp edges, and lots of little crevices to catch fire. All of them have ignited well from flash breaks, except the willow, which I've only broken with black powder. They too might ignite properly from a flash break; I've just never tried it because I never needed that sort of effect.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Wiley

[lloyd]

Wiley,

If willow comps are blowing blind, then the only thing I can think of is that while rolling, you rolled the last layer too wet, too long, and all the dextrin (or other water-soluble binder) migrated to the surface. That would make a relatively fire-proof surface that might resist hard breaks.

 

"Too wet, too long" is the culprit in many stars that turn out hard to light.

 

Lloyd