AzoMittle Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Please forgive me if this has been discussed before, I figured it would have been but searching turned up nothing relevant. If it has a link would be appreciated. Can anything be substituted for chlorates? If so at what ratio? I've come across several old formulas (colored stars) that use large amounts of chlorates and sulfur together and am hoping for a safer version. The principle chlorate being potassium chlorate but also copper, strontrium, barium, and sodium chlorates. My natural inclination would be to use a slightly larger amount of perchlorate but perhaps the nitrates would be more suitable?
Arthur Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Nothing really replaces the chlorates. Perc could be similar but the decomposition products are different so often a chlorate comp will be chlorine sufficient but a perc comp will need additional chlorine donors. Sulphur is a fuel in this case, look at a replacement fuel too.
AzoMittle Posted May 29, 2016 Author Posted May 29, 2016 I had considered switching out the sulfur but I would prefer to sub the chlorate so that I can still prime and burst with BP, use 1 set of tooling/mill, and also have 1 less chemical to store.
AzoMittle Posted May 29, 2016 Author Posted May 29, 2016 Okay okay, but that's not my question. I'll say it again in slightly different words: if you HAVE TO switch the chlorate out, what would you switch it for and how much? This is the exact same issue that other people who have asked this question have had, no one answers it but instead knitpicks things like sulfates.
Arthur Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 IMO there is NO simple substitution for chlorate. the oxidiser is usually about 60% of the mixture, changing that you will need to rebuild the whole formula completely.
lloyd Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Azo,Saying "nobody answers" tends to incriminate them for mal-intent, when such probably doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is, there IS NO (even approximately) direct replacement for chlorates for which one wouldn't have to completely rework the entire formula. The most-direct 'replacement' for chlorates would be perchlorates. But even then there will, of needs, be more adjustments to most formulae than merely a small increase in the oxidizer amount. Consider.a delicate chlorate/lactose blue. There's hardly anything one can do that will make it work well with perchlorates or nitrates. Instead, the whole formula must be re-jiggered to accommodate the much higher flame temperature. LLoyd
AzoMittle Posted May 29, 2016 Author Posted May 29, 2016 The nobody answers wasn't directed at you or Arthur, I was referring to the thread I linked to, the title is literally "KClO3 to KClO4 Substitution" yet the entire thread revolves around the copper sulfate. Not trying to be rude, just trying to encourage to stay on topic since it felt like it was about to veer off into the same direction that one did. If there's no substitute so be it but I figured I would ask. Given a 'no other choice' scenario what people would do?
Arthur Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Licensed factories have to keep chlorate compounds totally separate from sulphur compounds, if there was a simple substitution then it would be well known by now. Commercially in a factory "separate" means separate shed with separate tools -no shared sieves no shared anything til the device is closed up. If the industry could be rid of this all factories would be rid of chlorates completely. However factories still need and use chlorates. If they can't get round them in business then who are we amateurs to try to change things. Azo, Maybe you could study the chemistry in detail til you are the one to announce that you have eliminated all need for chlorates.
lloyd Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Given no other choice (for instance, if working in a "no chlorates, PERIOD" shop), you'd re-formulate. Generally, perchlorate would replace the chlorate, then extra work would be required to get the color emitting portion of the flame envelope back to the temperature it was with the chlorate (with some concessions, perhaps, to a smaller flame envelope). Formulation experiments are - for some of us - a real joy in themselves. I need absolutely no extra encouragement to disappear into the mixing room for a couple of days when a new formula is requested. When designing some of the formulae for our (Santore & Sons) perchlorate-free (Eco-Tech) line of goods, I got to spend WEEKS doing it... and I think it's my favorite pyro activity. LLoyd 1
AzoMittle Posted May 29, 2016 Author Posted May 29, 2016 Okay, Arthur, calm down. Where in the world did you get the idea that I'm trying to solve the pyro world's problems with chlorates by starting a thread asking about them...? Seriously, calm the fuck down. I never said 'I have some magical simple solution but I'm not sharing it and instead going to start a thread asking a question I already have this magical answer to'. Nor did I say I was a chemist or had any sort of professional expertise in this. Again, thank you for that ever so lovely contribution of saying they have to be kept separate, I already mentioned that's part of the reason why I asked. I had no ill will towards you before, but you've shown yourself to be an ass with that last comment. Thank you for a rational and well explained answer Lloyd.
AzoMittle Posted May 29, 2016 Author Posted May 29, 2016 You know what, I'm sorry, that probably came off wrong. Arthur, if you're ever out in California send me a PM and I'll buy you a beer and have a chat. I'm just getting frustrated that the thread was going off on a tangent.
lloyd Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Unfortunately, Azo, that's the very nature of "forum" activity. You can ask the MOST specific question in the world; even requesting that only directly pertinent discussions be made. INEVITABLY, someone will post something off-topic or only diagonally-related to the answer sought, and the thread will take on a life of its own. Good moderators can help, but overbearing ones make their forums unpleasant places to be. So; it's a trade-off. 'Nature of the beast, I fear. <shrug> LLoyd
OldMarine Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 The only reason I get irked when a thread goes off topic is when it veers into something unrelated but very interesting. This makes searching for that info later rather problematic.
lloyd Posted May 31, 2016 Posted May 31, 2016 Fla...With your wallet! Lacking that, there's not much else that CAN make even semi-good BP. LLoyd
FlaMtnBkr Posted May 31, 2016 Posted May 31, 2016 I was just joking with a completely random question but I should have made that more clear. A decent hobby mill following your parameters was the first thing I made when first starting hobby pyro over 15 years ago. I made it before making my first pyro device while I read and learned as much as I could. I recognized the need for good BP and didn't even try making anything until I could make good BP first. I don't regret it as it's still going strong and I'm sure it saved me a lot of frustration.
lloyd Posted May 31, 2016 Posted May 31, 2016 From our interactions elsewhere, I knew you already had the means to do it right. I thought you were asking a general question in response to something a beginner had asked. Lloyd
Mixer Posted May 31, 2016 Posted May 31, 2016 Fla...With your wallet! Lacking that, there's not much else that CAN make even semi-good BP. LLoyd With your wallet! That`s a definite - let someone else do the work. Well incorporated superfine Sulphur and KN03 with airfloat Willow charcoal will get the job done admirably.
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