dagabu Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 Alex,You didn't read the post. What he claims happened cannot have happened as he states it -- not even with straight chlorate flash powder! LLoyd Totally missed the speed issue, thanks Lloyd!
DavidF Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 Wow, I just gotta ask: does anybody really think the accident didn't happen because he said 300 RPM instead of 30? Seriously- hands up, anybody that thinks this is the second pyro accident report that has been faked in the last couple of weeks.
FlaMtnBkr Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 Yes 300 is likely a typo or guess. You couldn't count that fast and would need some type of timing light to determine speed. There is also an assumption of jar dimensions. Not everything people write is always completely accurate and typos and some assumptions are likely made outside of a lab setting. There is likely the occasional fictitious post by someone with some sort of psychological issue, but I imagine the bulk of claims here are mostly true though accuracy will suffer in a hobby setting. Just in case OP missed it, don't mill chlorate with anything else. Don't mill any oxidizer and fuel unless it's BP and even then it should be done assuming it could blow up at any time during the process. From what I remember, chlorate and sugar is just as sensitive and powerful as chlorate and aluminum based on drop impact tests and explosion velocity. I think it is actually more so but would need to find the tables in some of the literature to verify that.
memo Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 ya know, he did have plenty of time to read the other posts that called to the forfront the fact that 300 rpm would not mill anything, 10 grams of flash would do more damage to the mill he has pictured. how many grams of chlorate based comp was he milling ? I think 3000. if that went boom it would really go boom. things don't add up memo
lloyd Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 And folks, I never said an accident did not happen -- it may have. But it did NOT happen the way he cites it. I'm a little suspect of the 'degree of disassembly', also. <G> LLoyd
dagabu Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 Maybe the shaft RPM was 300, wouldn't that give you close to a good tumbling speed (no book on hand for the numbers I am afraid), Lloyd?
lloyd Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 Any estimates except from HIS hand would be only W.A.G.s... but... here goes one: That one remaining shaft appears to be about 12mm-15mm in diameter. If the jar was 30cm o.d., then that would have been a reduction in speed of 20:1 (or more), resulting in a jar speed of 15 rpm or slower. No... not reasonable numbers, any way you work it. Lloyd
braddsn Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 Regardless of the outcome here, this is interesting stuff. Good eye LLoyd. I noticed that his english is not great... he must be confused about the 300 rpm part. But the fact that he is milling oxidizers and metals.... wow... I honestly never believed I would ever hear of anyone doing that. Hopefully he learned a valuable lesson here.
rogeryermaw Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 Perhaps it was the motor turning 300 rpm. Pulley or gear reduction bla bla bla you get the idea. Serious answer? Here: the industrial history of mankind has been a violent learning curve laced with death, injury and discovery. You learning how to handle a mill could be just like that if you trial and error your way through. This was the only way to perfect new technologies once upon a time. Fortunately for you and all of us, this ball milling thing has been done (pardon the choice of phrase here) to death. The database of info available is HUGE!!! Given the mixture you chose to mill even in the face of overwhelming volumes of info and experience you have to draw from even from just this website, I would recommend you take a break from hobbies of energetic chemistry. You want a serious answer? I don't think you have the wisdom or decision making abilities to do this stuff safely. Dag said he didn't like to say "idiot" but there it is. Forget your own life. You owe it to the people around you to put the dangerous toys away. You weren't milling an ignition mixture. You mixed a bomb and provided it confinement. Your next step, if you insist on continued foray into pyro, is to educate yourself. If you had spent even a day on this site reading about milling comps, your "accident" would never have been possible as you'd have known not to mill ANY CHLORATE MIXTURE!!! Or any other mixture with fine metal fuel particles. /rant 1
lloyd Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 Roger,Did you look at is post-mortem pictures of the mill? That's no mill that has ever been exposed to an explosion of the material he mentioned in the quantity he mentioned. According to his claim, he was milling a LARGE quantity of chlorate flash. It distorted the box. REALLY? That much flash of any ilk would have turned that entire box into shrapnel. I believe the whole thing is one of those "Please love me" posts, just looking for sympathy, friendship, or whatever. LLoyd
rogeryermaw Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 Yes agreed. Under the conditions as stated, the visual evidence is not a match. But something untoward occurred in that box. It looks puffed out like a balloon. Pressure certainty spiked in there... if any portion of his claim is true, it was definitely not quantity unless it was so far off stoich there was a sluggish and incomplete reaction...I'm still unsure why anyone would want the sort attention one would get from such unsafe action....unless trolling but there are far better places to ply that trade....and were that the case, me assertion stands. The immaturity required to troll people in a place like this means he'd be far too immature to practice this art.
lloyd Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 Roger,My real point is, I don't think that's even HIS ball mill! The stated circumstances don't match up with the physical evidence. For those who've read my stuff... I've deliberately exploded a mill jar with only BP in it, and the results were cataclysmic -- With flash, I cannot even IMAGINE how violent it would be (well... yes, actually I can, because my wife is a licensed HE blaster... but that aside ... <G>) I think... for whatever motivation, that he's cooked up a story to get attention. Some folks need more than others. We all need some.LLoyd
stix Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 . . . my wife is a licensed HE blaster . . . Lloyd, that statement has made me realise why I've never been fully satisfied with the respondents on my dating site. I'm going to change it to: "Must be rich, and HE qualified" 1
lloyd Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 <G> Linda and I have been blowing things up for a LOT of years (45, actually!). LLoyd 2
MadMat Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 Agree on the condition of the "post-explosion" ball mill. I would be willing to bet that 100 grams of my black powder would be drastically worse.
patsroom Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) I am reading that it was over 6 and half pounds of chemicals and looking at the damage done in the picture, I just needs more proof of facts on this one. One thing that I practice when I ball mill is that black powder is the only complete compound of chemicals that are together when I mill. But please tell me what other formulas that can be mill together at one time and what precautions that should be used. Not that I plan to do so, but I think it would be a good review of what can be milled together as well as safety that should be practiced...........Pat Edited May 22, 2016 by patsroom
rogeryermaw Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 Finished comps "safe" to mill typically are variations of black powder. Usually those containing other chemicals are screened in after milling the standard b.p. ingredients. Beyond that, mill chemicals separately.
stix Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 <G> Linda and I have been blowing things up for a LOT of years (45, actually!). LLoyd Bloody Hell Lloyd, 45 yrs!!!. Well, that sounds like a great lady you have - congratulations. There's not enough women, that I've ever met, that actually enjoy or participate in pyrotechnics or any other scientific endevours. Mostly they just "tolerate" the "hobby". If that sounds sexist - I don't really care. Today I'm 55yrs old and rapidly heading to 60. I'll say what I want to say . There's too much "political correctness" these days, especially here in Oz. I say "walks like a duck is a duck and a spade is indeed a spade", so why pretend otherwise.
lloyd Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Well, Linda would far rather watch fireworks than make them, but she's done it all, from pressing comets to making aerial shells with her own hands. She's been 'second lead' on many high-profile theme park shows (for one of the 'big three' theme park companies). She became HE-qualified in order to further our business. I was pretty proud of that lady for that accomplishment! LLoyd Edited May 22, 2016 by lloyd
stix Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Well, Linda would far rather watch fireworks than make them, but she's done it all, from pressing comets to making aerial shells with her own hands. She's been 'second lead' on many high-profile theme park shows (for one of the 'big three' theme park companies). She became HE-qualified in order to further our business. I was pretty proud of that lady for that accomplishment! LLoyd That's nice Lloyd. Too few and far between. It's good to have a collaborator to help get things done especially if they are of the opposite sex. Although that can sometimes have negative consequences, but obviously not in your case. Edited May 22, 2016 by stix
lloyd Posted May 22, 2016 Posted May 22, 2016 "Although that can sometimes have negative consequences, but obviously not in your case."-----Oh... I never said THAT! Lloyd 1
FlaMtnBkr Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 Depending on ratios that could be a flash like composition all the way to basically a smoke composition. I'm not sure I believe it either as it just doesn't sound right, but couldn't a chlorate smoke comp ignite in a mill under the right circumstances? And wouldn't it be a fairly tame ignition, even in a sealed container and with the amounts claimed?
Rkteer Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 ( potassium chlorate, sugar, iron oxide, aluminium mix for an ignition charge )Don't think it's a smoke, he claims he was making an ignition charge. Who would know though.
Redrocketman Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 I can't believe that people try these things without doing there research. Potassium chlorate in a ball mill?? WTF?? As said lucky no one was killed. I'm not trying to be rude, but this is what gives this craft a bad rep in some peoples eyes. I'm still what I class as fairly new to the game, & am more into rocketry, but the same rules apply ( as with shooting & firearms) safety first & if your not sure, ask the pros. That's why I joined & it's paid off in spades And I've still all my fingers!!
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