CIA versus Pulverone

[dagabu]

Thanks Mum! I'll read through that tonight after class.

 

The Swish came back with the recommendation of the name being, "Milled Pulverone".

[WonderBoy]

Not exactly an answer to the original question, but polverone (even made with commercial AF) can be used for lift. But, it does not act quite the same as milled lift. It seems to be less consistent when used with smaller shells (<5" multibreaks), it burns slower so you have to use more of it, and/or you have to use additional containment. A few of us have been using it with success, but it is definitely out of the norm as far as I am aware, so it'll come down to your own experimentation.

 

 

WB

Edited May 14, 2016 by WonderBoy

[AlteredMatter]

I took note to what MrB said. Out of curiosity I purchased the "CIA Field Expedient Preparation of Black Powder". From what he said that in his mind "CIA" black powder has no place in pyrotechnics, he's right. After reading the text nowhere in the book does it say that this powder was intended for pyrotechnics. It was intended for rifle or blasting powder. Now, CIA black powder will work for fireworks - but by no means being cost effective. You need to use 5 pints of alcohol for about 600 grams! If you really used that much alcohol per batch, I'm sure you would spend out the ass on alcohol. I believe this preparation is only useful in wartime situations - for expedience and without access to a ball mill.

[Ubehage]

A

 

Great pulverone, is a fair bit slower then great "CIA" BP. Proper ballmilled, outperforms both, by a good margin. So, if you need a good black powder, ballmill it. If you need green mix / pulverone, make that. My personal opinion is that CIA has no place in pyrotechnics.

B!

As someone who started with the CIA-method, I agree with all my heart.

"Ignorance is bliss", as they say. I found the CIA-method to be easy and efficient. But after I got a ballmill, I realized that I was living in the dark.

 

Even green mix, when made properly, will outperform the CIA-method.

[MrB]

Even green mix, when made properly, will outperform the CIA-method.

 

I'll stick with my first post. Good "CIA powder" will outperform, or perform on par, with every kind of BP up to (ball) milled variants. The issues with CIA is that it's wasting a lot of your KNO3, and as such, you need to add more to the composition. Since the temperature determines solubility, your going to have to be very consistent when tuning your powder, and then repeat it with perfection every time you make a new batch. Same amounts of fluids, same exact temperatures, same time between steps, so on. It's labor intensive, and expensive for no real reason.

 

Anyway, my standing recommendation is to get a ball mill, and lead media.

B!

[dagabu]

I personally, found that CIA method BP did not perform as well with the same ingredients as did traditional, press/puck BP. Safety is probably the biggest concern with CIA powder, the hot plate and then the addition of cold Isopropyl to "fix" the KNO3 adds two elements to the manufacturing that pose the greatest threat.

 

Wasteful and expensive for what you get, better BP can be made using the David F. method of hyper milling separate ingredients, that is the way I will go if I ever make it myself again.

 

As it stands, my build-buddies just finished 150 pounds of 2FA and 4FA so we should be good for the year!

[AlteredMatter]

When I was lifting shells with pulverone, I forgot to mention it was coarse pulverone. I used a 4 mesh screen for granulation. I did try the approach with a dummy shell using 20 mesh pulverone, and it resulted in not going as high as I expected - more than likely would have resulted in a low break if I had chosen a real shell. After seeing the results and switching over to 4 mesh pulverone it worked like a charm. From what was said earlier, I was using commercial airfloat charcoal in my green powder. I guess if you don't want to ball mill you could also make coarse Red Gum black powder. I was a little skeptical of this method thinking if you bind green mix with red gum it would produce very powerful black powder. But after following the instructions, it is pretty fast I have to say.

[Mumbles]

Polverone, in the unmilled granulated green meal sense, can work fine for lifting shells. You just need more, and it tends to not work as well with lighter shells or looser shells. Using a lift maroon works great and helps to offset these issues.

 

My biggest issue with red gum bound anything is that it isn't as strong as I'd prefer.

[AlteredMatter]

It should be noted that the original patent for the CIA method employed a vacuum, but modernization replaced it with the addition of alcohol. From that statement I only assume one thing, that it required vacuum filtration to prevent the formation of large KNO3 crystals in your mix.

[MrB]

Another benefit of a vacuum would be that it wouldn't take an excess of KNO3, since none would follow the water out of the product. I have to admit, i had no idea. Anywhere that this could be read about? Sounds like it would take care of the largest "problem" with the CIA method, it's stupendously high price-point for the produced BP. I suspect it would still be overelaborate, and not really worth the extra hassle performance ways, but a interesting read none the less.

 

B!

[AlteredMatter]

&nbsp;

Another benefit of a vacuum would be that it wouldn't take an excess of KNO3, since none would follow the water out of the product. I have to admit, i had no idea. Anywhere that this could be read about? Sounds like it would take care of the largest "problem" with the CIA method, it's stupendously high price-point for the produced BP. I suspect it would still be overelaborate, and not really worth the extra hassle performance ways, but a interesting read none the less.

 

B!

&nbsp;

 

Here is the original patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US160053

 

I read about this in Tom Perigrin's book " Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics " It doesn't go into detail about it, but apparently the patent is pretty old.

Edited February 3, 2017 by AlteredMatter

[MrB]

My eyes, my eyes!

 

Oh the language. Damn. Thanks.

B!

[AlteredMatter]

Sorry, I wasn't cussing. The reply box wouldn't let me delete that for some reason.

[MrB]

I was rather referring to the language in the patent. Since it's from "7th day of January, 1875" it comes as no shock that it is a rather old style of writing.

B!

[Tino777]

CIA and Pulverone are bad methods.

 

PART I

 

First of all, it is important to define some important concepts before discussing the quality of black powder.

 

1) To have good dust, which is slighly hygroscopic and with good flammability, ideal for all uses: from fireworks to use as launching powder for grenade launchers or throwing tubes, the most appropriate dosage is that English, dating from around 1722 and which is the most versatile, with the following parts by weight:

 

75% potassium nitrate, KNO3 ;

15% charcoal, C7H4O (better if made with vine wood);

10% sulfur, S .

2) Combustion speed is a function of the diameter of the fuel particles: so for very rapid combustion it is necessary to micronize the sulfur and carbon particles and mix them intimately to obtain a good solid fuel even before mixing it with potassium nitrate.

Vegetable coal in large pieces of the supermarket is hard to grind and therefore need more professional grinders than common blenders or grinders. Otherwise, it should first be grated and then grinding.

You can also use mills for agricultural use.

Once the coal is reduced to coarse dust, a common blender is sufficient to reduce it to impalpable dust.

After that the coal is sifted with something like this:

http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com

http://www.inoxia.co.uk

The coarser powder is returned to the blender, while the impalpable powder (finest than fine flour) can be mixed with sulfur (also must be impalpable powder) and put in a ball mill, such as:

http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com

http://www.pyrosupplies.com

Using spheres of lead, copper, brass, or steel.

It takes at least 6-8 hours of grinding to obtain a micronized powder of sulfur-carbon mixture.

The best balls to grind are those in chrome steel for bearings,

like these:

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Loose-Balls-&-Rollers-52100-Chrome-Steel-Loose-Ball-Bearings/c23_7240/index.html

PART II

Now take a blender and add denatured alcohol to 90-95%, or a mixture of 90% bioethanol and 10% demineralized or distilled water. Methanol or isopropyl alcohol can also be used.

The liquid must drain the blender blades, however sufficient to wet the mixing powder.

Then introduce the micronized sulfur-carbon blend together with potassium nitrate in the kitchen blender, observing the correct proportions of the dosage, using a scale weighing the grams.

Turn on the blender for 1-2 minutes. IMPORTANT: Do not use dry blender for combustible-oxidizer mixtures, as it may ignite and explode;It is always necessary to use a liquid.

The mixture is then placed in a glass pan and dried on a thermosphere, or in the sun.

Do not use stoves, microwave ovens, electric ovens or other sources of heating that may ignite the mixture during drying.

To choose the drying system it is important that the temperature of the heating source of the drying medium does not exceed 250 °C.

Evaporated all the liquid you get a fantastic, very flammable, quick-combusting powder, which makes little smoke and leaves little residue after burning.

GRANULATION

For granular black powder, dextrin or pyrocollodium (nitrocellulose at 12.5% nitrogen) may be used.

The dextrin is cheaper and needs to be added to the black powder in doses ranging from 1-3% by weight.

Through a sprayer sprays alcohol on the powder while mixing it continuously.

So they will form the first black powder grains.

They tend to burst into ignition.

[lloyd]

Tino,

 

 

This appears only to be 'recitation' (and poorly, with mistakes) by someone who's never actually made black powder -- or at least never made any of useful quality. It almost looks and feels like you were writing a high-school 'research paper'. Even if I ignore the language differences (clearly English is not your native tongue), it appears more poorly-done than most high schoolers' work.

 

It expresses SEVERE ignorance in the art of pyrotechnics. When one states that Polverone is a 'bad method', it's clear than the individual has ZERO practical experience with fireworks, and is just spouting-off what he's read, or what he's heard on other groups where everyone there is also ignorant of the methods. Polverone is not a 'method', it's a product. Second, it's very much-used in fireworks, and with great success. When used, it's usually the BEST-suited material for the job!

 

This is the sort of drivel we SERIOUSLY need to avoid having here, or on any legitimate pyro web site.

 

LLoyd

[MadMat]

Hmm... I guess I have been mistaken for quite a while now. I make can shells and have filled the spaces in between the stars with what I have been calling polverone. I make this by simply screen mixing (20 mesh) the chems 3 to four times and thats it. This is NOT what I use for lift or burst. I have, on occasion, ball milled, instead of screen mixing this mixture for about 20-30 minutes (if I'm feeling lazy). Either way, I figured it was just a flammable mixture to fill in spaces in the shell. I guess I was wrong, but it has worked for me.

Edited May 11, 2017 by MadMat

[lloyd]

Yeah, Mat, that would be the case! Polverone is a very-important material in the making of cylinder shells. Tino doesn't recognize that, because he's never made any fireworks. <shrug>

 

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

Probably a good thing Mike Swisher isn't on this forum although the reaction and replies to the above poster would be very exciting! The man measures his chems in tens of pounds and polverone is one of his favorite subjects (among a bazillion).

[Mumbles]

There is always a little ambiguity with regard to the term polverone depending on who you're talking to and what method you're discussing. It translates as coarse powder. When discussing the italian or italo-american method of building, such as from Fulcanelli, it refers to a screen mixed composition that has been granulated through a screen. If discussing the maltese method of building shells, it often refers to a ball milled fast burning mixture used for lifting and bursting shells. It can get confusing at times.

 

If made appropriately, screen granulated powder can be made just as hot as many milled black powder. Just ask DaveF.

[DavidF]

What, did somebody say my name? Yup, I was going through some old stuff today and found an old container of screen-mixed rock tumbler BP. By that I mean the components were milled separately and screened together after. It was granulated with 50% alcohol from the dollar store. 10 grams gave a baseball flight time of 11.2 seconds.

 

P.S. I was just talking to Caleb last night, and he's sitting on hundreds of pounds of stainless steel and hardened lead media. The stainless steel is ideal for single component milling. Lead's better for 3 component milling, but not by a lot. It's potentially safer (pronounced 'less risky') though. The 3/8" SS media is good for single component milling in a small jar, in my experience.

Edited May 12, 2017 by DavidF

[viziers]

For a while it would ball mill my mix for 5 or 6 hours using Paulownia charcoal I made but with all the ball mill accidents I have read it makes me nervous and will try to ball mill the 3 chems separately and then screen them together a bunch of times before wetting and screening it to see how well it makes it.

 

 

vizi

[lloyd]

Vizi,

There have been few ball milling accidents that didn't meet a few 'exceptional' criteria:

 

1) MOST of the accidents have occurred either with vastly over-sized milling jars (increasing impact between milling balls), or due to the jar's becoming opened during the run, and spilling the contents.

2) There have been very few accidents using lead media. Most of the dramatic ones were using steel or ceramic media.

3) MY accident was due to MIXING (not 'milling') a substance known to be pyrophoric in fine dispersion in air.

 

In general, one should ALWAYS barricade a mill, in case an explosion occurs. But very few accidents have ever happened with mill jars under 2-gallon capacity (7500cc), and under 10" in inside diameter (250mm), using lead media (even hardened lead).

 

Lloyd

[viziers]

Vizi,

There have been few ball milling accidents that didn't meet a few 'exceptional' criteria:

 

1) MOST of the accidents have occurred either with vastly over-sized milling jars (increasing impact between milling balls), or due to the jar's becoming opened during the run, and spilling the contents.

2) There have been very few accidents using lead media. Most of the dramatic ones were using steel or ceramic media.

3) MY accident was due to MIXING (not 'milling') a substance known to be pyrophoric in fine dispersion in air.

 

In general, one should ALWAYS barricade a mill, in case an explosion occurs. But very few accidents have ever happened with mill jars under 2-gallon capacity (7500cc), and under 10" in inside diameter (250mm), using lead media (even hardened lead).

 

Lloyd

 

You are right there have been very few incidents and like you said most were due to human error more so then equipement error. I currently use brass stock so I know there is no issue there however I am sure mine is undercharged when it comes to the mill media and my jar is a 8"-10" pvc jar. I have never had an issue with it but it can always happen.

 

Unfortunately I am now out of BP and need to make roughly 5lbs more for stock and need to make roughly 15lbs of D1 for some 4" mines. I also need to order me some 325 mesh sperical aluminum. Ugg!

 

All in all it is mostly just nervousness and being overly cautious which is always a good thing and I have a few cans of anti static spray.

 

vizi

Edited May 25, 2017 by viziers

[Mumbles]

Lloyd, what would you consider to be the cutoff between a safe and unsafe sized milling jar?