CIA versus Pulverone

[AlteredMatter]

I was unable to find this subject using the search engine for the site. From my own studies, pulverone seemed to burn similarly to CIA black powder. Although the CIA black powder burned a little faster, is pulverone a viable substitute for CIA black powder? Pulverone is much cheaper too, all you need is a 40 mesh screen and dextrin(approximately 5 percent). Is it true that CIA black powder is pretty much very expensive pulverone? I used a 40 mesh screen to mix the chemicals at 75:15:10. I also contacted Skylighter with this question and they told me:

 

" CIA black powder is marginally better than the hand mixed version" Marginally, meaning only slightly better?

 

Is this statement true?

[MrB]

Great pulverone, is a fair bit slower then great "CIA" BP. Proper ballmilled, outperforms both, by a good margin. So, if you need a good black powder, ballmill it. If you need green mix / pulverone, make that. My personal opinion is that CIA has no place in pyrotechnics.

B!

[AlteredMatter]

I get what you mean. I was just wondering if it's really worth the extra cost for alcohol when pulverone burns almost the same speed. I tried using a 100 mesh screen for pulverone one time, it burned a little faster, but not by much. I guess the CIA method is much more work, but if pulverone works just as good, I see no point. I've actually used pulverone to lift shells(although you have to use much more). For lift, CIA went a little higher than pulverone in the sky, but I believe your right, ball milled black powder would work way better and much higher in lift - nonetheless you could also use less of it for a higher lift. Thanks!

[schroedinger]

If you want to use the bp use ball milled bp.

Green mix made with 40 mesh is a lot slower then CIA powder, but you can make an at least equal green mix if you use 100 mesh screen and screen at least 5 times.

If you wan't to lift with these, use a strong lift maroon to use it's full potential. Else the green mix is interesting to use as a combustible filler.

[MrB]

I get what you mean. I was just wondering if it's really worth the extra cost for alcohol when pulverone burns almost the same speed.

 

As i said. In my mind, "CIA" BP has no place in pyro. It's by no means cost effective. Stick to pulverone, and once that no longer is sufficient, start looking at a ballmill.

B!

[Arthur]

Get the ingredients right and the method right, don't bother with jury rigged "expedient" methods that produce inferior product.

[AlteredMatter]

You're right, with all of the alcohol you'd be buying to make CIA black powder you could probably afford a rock tumbler.. and a half! Although I just made some pulverone recently, I used the 40 mesh screen and 1% dextrin this time. It is considerably faster. I'll be trying it again with a 100 mesh screen with 1% dextrin this time, and I think I agree with the previous post, the 100 mesh screen would produce a much faster burning pulverone.

[lloyd]

You'll have 'altered' your opinion about the 'matter', after that, I think.

 

Too fine of a screen reduces the powder back down to essentially the same rough-mix it was before wetting and screening. I believe 40 mesh is about as good as it will get. Most polverone is more coarse than that.

 

LLoyd

[AlteredMatter]

The 100 mesh screen for mixing, not granulation. For granulation, I am using a 20 mesh screen.

[lloyd]

Then you're not really changing anything. Blending bagged chems through a 40-mesh is as thorough as reasonably can be, unless you're not sieving them three times (which you should do every time) -- hand-mix, sieve (1), hand-mix, sieve (2), hand-mix, sieve (3) and bucket.

 

If your chemicals don't already pass 100-mesh, screening them through 100-mesh will do nothing at all except cause you to throw away or re-grind some of them.

 

The speed of polverone (given a certain uniform starting fineness of chemicals) is determined by the thoroughness of mixing, the use of the bare minimum water necessary to properly bind the powder, and using 15-20-mesh screen for the granulation (always the same size, for consistent results).

 

Lloyd

[AlteredMatter]

I used the instructions on the Skylighter website, I was using a plastic container with a lid and shaking it up for about 10 seconds between screenings.

[Maserface]

That's a popular method as well, for smaller batches. Shaking 10-40 pounds at a time wouldn't be as easily done. It is probably a good idea to watch for static when you are shaking shit around in plastic.

 

To the OP, I'll cast another vote for throwing the cia method in the garbage (at least for making black powder). I will add that using hot-boiling water to dampen the composition seems to make nicer granules, and is also reported to make faster powder.

[dagabu]

I would hope that others that understand the components of BP better than I jump in here too but from my experiences, there is a LOT of pulverone being made that is faster than good old fashioned pressed/pucked/corned BP.

 

From all of the posts and hands on experiences, it seems that the charcoal makes the big difference so that one only has to ball mill their BP and then add enough water (or 91% rubbing alcohol) to whet it enough to form a ball from it and press it through a screen to make hot BP. Thus making an overpriced and frankly, mythical CIA method a rather silly method to make BP from.

 

Using willow charcoal from my sister in-laws back yard, a friend has made pulverone with 3% dextrine and hot water, give a baseball 9.7 seconds of flight time following Ned Gorski's methodology of baseball testing. We freely call it BP and not pulverone because of its power being greater than commercial BP.

 

No trolls please, I'm not calling for a name change or challenging anybody here, these are just our experiences and nothing more. As a pyrotechnician, I prefer to make my BP this way and will continue to do so without concern and will not ever make it via the CIA method.

 

The OP asked, "Although the CIA black powder burned a little faster, is pulverone a viable substitute for CIA black powder?". Yes, in fact it is (if ball milled) it is often much 'better' than commercial BP.

[lloyd]

Dave,
If it's ball milled, it's not polverone!

 

Lloyd

[dagabu]

Dave,

If it's ball milled, it's not polverone!

 

Lloyd

 

I guess that after a good tongue lashing in Italian and being told that unless its pucked and corned, it's not BP, the only place a wet balled and riced gren powder fits is pulverone. If that's not the case, could you site the publication that differentiates?

 

http://pyrosource.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Powder_(Pulverone)

 

http://vk2zay.net/composition/20

Edited May 12, 2016 by dagabu

[OldMarine]

Apparently the terms "meal" and "polverone" are ambiguous now due to changing times.

I think Mr. Swisher had a good commentary on the subject somewhere but it made my head hurt so I'll leave it alone.

[Mumbles]

I would consider Fulcanelli to be the definitive source personally. That said, I haven't browsed the original Italian literature. I would not be surprised if there was a mis-translation or bastardization of terminology along the way at some point.

 

[dagabu]

If not black powder and not pulverone, then what would it be?

 

Pulverone is a dust cloud. Polvere nera is black powder. My thinking, and certainly not eliminated by Fulcanelli, is that the ball milled, whetted and dextrine added and then riced has to have some sort of name?

polvere nera

polvere nera

[Mumbles]

I understand that. To me granulated or corned meal powder is black powder either way. Some may disagree of course. Given that they preform essentially the same function in most cases, I feel comfortable that my choice of words will not really cause too much confusion.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. A screened mix containing a traditionally "hot" charcoal does make serviceable product. It can be used for lift, with some confinement or amount increase. Made with commercial airfloat it's essentially just flammable filler. When made with willow or something it can begin to approach acceptable.

[MrB]

Green mix, pulverone, granulated, corned... Damn it guys.I just wanna make BP.

 

Just kidding of course.

 

What i thought was true:

Green mix, is just BP that barely got screened together.

Granulated, is the same mix, moistened, and granulated through a screen, possibly ballmilled, possibly with added dextrin, then moistened.

Pulverone is always ballmilled, always has dextrin, is moistened, and granulated, making "granulated" above, and pulverone, the same thing, in a lot of cases.

Corned BP is BP pressed to solid chunks, then broken down and sized for different uses. Straight BP, no binder, often no wetting agent.

Meal powder is the weird beast. Sometimes used to describe the tiny fragments from corning, but also green mix.

 

Given that a LOT of pyros don't have access to the "real" documentation, it's no wonder bastardized labels start to screw with or vocabulary. Mine included, i see. (Which probably has a lot to do with that a lot of the terminology "knowledge" i know comes from Pyro Guide, which is a collaborate effort, wikipedia style.)

Well, i sort of expected as much anyway, so it's no shock that i screw some things up.

So, why don't we start our own little terminology list? Let the authoritative folks battle it out, and make a list of basic terms like this, and tack it on the formulation database?

With "we" i sort of mean you guys. I'm not exactly the authority on pyro, even if my friends think i'm a rocket scientist... No idea how they got to THAT conclusion, but i wont tell them they are wrong.

B!

[dagabu]

B!

 

No argument from me, I like the idea of giving some of these items a name. One thing though, it seems that pulverone is considered a scratch mix strictly, no milling. In an email exchange with Mike Swisher this morning, it was reinforced that pulverone is a scratch mix, whetted and with dextrine, pushed through a screen.

 

I did ask what name HE would assign this in-between granulated powder we are making a lot of now and his response thus far is, "in French and Spanish, where ball milled powder is called "poussier de tonneau" or "pulsier," while commercial meal is "pulvérin" or "polvórin."

 

I am waiting for more from him but for now, I think I'll just call it BP and be happy.

 

[PhoenixRising]

I'm certainly no authority on the subject, but I just wanted to add my impressions from what I've read here and there online.

 

Green Mix - Hand mixed with nothing else done to it.

 

Meal Powder - Green Mix that has been milled.

 

Pulverone - Green mix that is of large granulation.

 

Black Powder - Meal Powder that has been granulated. Usually has a mesh number.

 

I also realize that BP is used many different ways, but this seemed to be one "clear" definition of it IMO.

Edited May 12, 2016 by PhoenixRising

[schroedinger]

I solved the problem by writing 2/4 FA on the bottles with corned powder.

2/4 FA riced on the bottles with riced fast bp.

Filler on the bottle with riced green mix, left over of C6/8 or similar.

[dagabu]

I am pretty sure black powder is milled, whetted, compressed and corned and meal powder is the small dust/grains left over from the corning process.

 

Pulverone goes by many names but always has a binder, green mix is just the sifted powder, nothing added.

[Mumbles]

This thread from a couple of years ago had a nice discussion of all of this. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/8796-help-with-ballmilled-black-powder/