Chemistry Experiment

[Hawkster16]

Preface

 

For a project in my high school Chemistry class, I had to chose a topic and explain the chemistry behind it, so I chose fireworks because I am genuinely interested in how they work. I also have to do an experiment related to the topic.

 

I have no experience in making fireworks other than mixing up some Potassium nitrate and sugar and burning it, so I have come here to ask a couple questions about my planned experiment.

 

From my research, I have planned a tentative experiment that I know I can at least get the chemicals for since the chemistry supply at school has them.

 

 

The Plan

 

1) Mix KClO4 and Charcoal and burn it.

 

2) Mix some CuO with the mixture and see how it changes color.

 

 

Questions

 

1) will this mixture burn at all? (I am just planning on just mixing the powders, not making stars)

 

2) will I be able to ignite it? (I have read that KClO4 stars are difficult to start)

 

2) will the change in color be noticeable? (I have read that unless I add some "chlorine donor" such as Parlon the color won't change very much)

 

3) about what proportions would be best? (I have seen some star compositions online that have like 4:1 ratios of KClO4 to CuO)

 

 

Thank you in advance!

[Mumbles]

Hello,

 

Unfortunately I don't think this will work all that well, or at least not how you intend it to. It's mostly your choice of fuel. Charcoal is full of ash and will over power any color produced. This is going to be especially bad since copper based blues are some of the most delicate colors. You may be able to get some color by using a cleaner fuel like lactose or another sugar.

 

As to your questions, yes KClO4/C will burn, and probably ignite without a great deal of trouble. It burns pretty sluggishly at ambient pressures though. Under pressure it goes much faster. This fact could make it kind of unpredictable depending on scale and any potential confinement. However the color probably wont be noticable if you add any colorant, but especially copper oxide.

 

If you wanted something that works, it's not difficult to color alcohol flames with pretty common chemicals. You could perhaps even do an experiment about incorporating chlorinated species (chloroform or dichloromethane). I will note that this is not without it's hazards. You'd want to work on a small scale in a well ventilated area or fume hood. Burning chlorinated solvents like those can generate some pretty nasty by-products.

[Hawkster16]

Thank you for the reply! Do you think that if I used another fuel, and another coloring chemical, I could get the powder mixture to burn? I could maybe use sugar and NaCl or something. If not I could dissolve CuO into Methanol and burn it. I have seen a couple of experiments that have really shown the color change in the flame by doing that.

[Mumbles]

I bet if you used a different fuel and colorant you could achieve some degree of color. I'm honestly not sure what color the perchlorate and fuel will burn on it's own, but you'd want to pick a colorant that is noticeably different. Certain fuels will burn with an almost lilac flame indicative of a potassium based flame. This would be ideal. It's weak and easily over powered. NaCl (yellow), calcium carbonate (orange), or strontium carbonate (reddish-orange) would be my first choices of colorant. They're quite powerful, easy to come by, and don't really have any weird issues. Chlorine will help turn the strontium from red-orange into pure red, but the other two don't need anything to get them to perform.

 

Copper oxide will not dissolve in methanol. You'd want the chloride or nitrate ideally, which can be created by dissolving the oxide in their respective acids.

[Hawkster16]

I think I will try a different fuel and colorant. I am sure that I can get ahold of some of those things.

 

When you say that chlorine will change the color, what would be a chemical that I would add to the mixture that would supply the chlorine? In my research, I have found some things that are called "chlorine donors" (such as Parlon). Is this what you would add?

 

Also, I didn't check to see that CuO was soluble in Methanol, I just took their word for it when I saw a video that claimed that. I do remember from chemistry that nitrates are always soluble in water and chlorides almost always are. Methanol molecules are polar like water, so I am guessing that the rules are similar even though is is less polar.

 

I will probably do some flame color change experiment also.

[AzoMittle]

I have a few suggestions for you (I actually did fireworks as my high school chemistry final project too!).

 

1. Research. Research, research, and then some more research. I know it is a high school project and it sucks and no one wants to do it, but give it a chance, really dig into pyrotechnics and you'll find some amazing things.

2. Mumble's suggestion of doing colored alcohol flames is going to be your cheapest and easiest method. The downside is that this doesn't really have a ton do with fireworks per se but more with flame emission spectra.

Fireworks includes (but is not limited to) considering things such as: choreographed show vs backyard shootout, ground vs aerial effect, shell vs rocket, size of the shell, paper vs plastic shell, type and amount of lift, type and amount of burst, type and amount of stars, inserts, and rising effects, permits and legalities, safety, safety, and safety again, making your own specialized tools and machines, finding vendors, getting dirty, and being part of a community.

And that doesn't even touch on the chemical side: burn time, burn rate, star/effect size, safety, chemical compatibility, oxygen/fuel balance, type and amount of additives such as chlorine or color donors or burn rate modifiers, priming and step priming, color transitions, cut vs rolled vs pumped stars, wetting the composition and drying the product, testing new formulas, storing raw chemicals and finished products, protective coating metals, ball milling practices, various shapes sizes and types of metals, etc. Oh, and that's just touching on some of the basic concepts of American recreational fireworks, if we say pyrotechnics that includes everything from fireballs for theater magicians and the NFL Superbowl to military and aerospace applications to airbags in cars and countless other things, the concept of pyro could be its own whole project.

When every aspect influences every other aspect you can see how this is radically different from the alcohol flame test.

3. Talk directly with your teacher after/before class. They may not feel comfortable with a student setting things on fire at school and want to do the demo themselves, they may think its a great idea and give you the full go ahead, impossible to know what they will and won't allow without talking first. Plus, if they are into it I am sure they have some resources/chemicals/tools/knowledge you can borrow.

4. If you decide to go ahead with the alcohol flame project I would suggest focusing on the chemistry, optics/physicis behind that; why certain chemicals give off certain colors, are they pure colors or what does the spectrum look like, how does concentration affect it, what do additives like chlorine compounds do, how does the nitrate compare to the carbonate, etc. But if you decide to go for the full pyro route I would suggest trying to make a few different stars; you can find formulas online but I would suggest googling for the Veline system of stars or the Glasswick system of lances, it's not something I would normally recommend but I feel it would be perfect for your project, it showcases how a few simple chemicals can create a wide variety of colors. Making a handful of lances or cut stars should be very cheap and fairly easy to do. If you're not sure what a star or lance is, google it. Don't bother trying to write your own formulas right now, the wheel has been invented and balanced to damn nigh perfection already.

5. Don't be afraid to ask questions! A majority of people here are willing to help so long as you put in some effort too. If you need help with anything feel free to PM me.

[Andres1511]

In my last year of highschool (past year),we also had to do a chemistry project, and yes I chose fireworks too. More specific, I chose "the best pyrotechnic composition for the most pure blue flame". Most pure translated in as much light from 470nm as possible, and as few other wavelengths as possible. The big difference is, I was already into pyrotechnics. Here are my tips, pretty much what AzoMittle said.

 

1) Focus on the chemistry. It's chemistry class, so your teacher wants to see chemistry. Not some shell building techniques.

2) Talk to your teacher about what you want to perform in class. I got permission to lit a red and a strobe star in the fume hood, and oh they were impressed.

3) If possible, bring examples. I brought a finished 2" shell and a cut in half 3" to pass around, they never had seen fireworks that close (in Belgium, shells aren't allowed as consumer fireworks)

4) make sure you truly understand what you're talking about, read as much as possible and do research until you fall asleep in front of your pc.

 

Good luck ! For those who are intrested, the ideal composition came really close to Phiko Blue. I should look my exact outcome up. If you have any questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

[Hawkster16]

AzoMittle:

 

1. I have done several hours of research, but it appears that there is so much to learn. What I have read has been really interesting, except when I don't know what I am looking for. Is there one source in particular that would be a good place to start learning? I will definitely be doing some more research in my free time and I think I will order some chemicals and make some things this upcoming summer.

 

2. I think it is a good idea to focus on the color emission from an alcohol flame, and that is what I will probably do.

 

When every aspect influences every other aspect you can see how this is radically different from the alcohol flame test.

 

This statement I found to be precisely the reason that I need to simplify the experiment to focus only on the flame emission spectra. That was a good way to put it. Fireworks are really complicated!

 

3. I have talked to my teacher and she was planning on supervising the experiment. The chemicals that I was planning on using were sourced from the school's chemistry lab. I have talked to her extensively about this project, and I don't think she is very familiar with these types of reactions. (I am in a very small school and she teaches 7-12 grade sciences, not just chemistry)

 

4.

If you decide to go ahead with the alcohol flame project I would suggest focusing on the chemistry, optics/physicis behind that; why certain chemicals give off certain colors, are they pure colors or what does the spectrum look like, how does concentration affect it, what do additives like chlorine compounds do, how does the nitrate compare to the carbonate, etc.

I think this is exactly what I will do, since time is in very short supply and I don't think I have time to get chemicals, make stars, dry them, and test them, but I think that for the alcohol flame project I am pretty sure that I can get most of what I need from the school. This summer, though, I will definitely be ordering some chemicals and trying some things out.

 

5. I will try to figure out things by myself, but I might have to ask some more questions in the future when I understand it all a bit more!

 

Thank you for taking the time to help me out!

 

Andres1511:

 

1. I will try to focus on the chemistry side of the project, for I have had experiences in the past when I have strayed from what the teacher wants.

 

2. and 3.The project actually is to make a >15 minute video on the chemistry of a specific topic (I chose fireworks) and to do an experiment within the video, so I will be unable to perform an experiment in front of the class or bring examples.

 

4. I will try to make sure that I truly understand what I'm talking about. I have been doing some reading, but it looks like there is a lot to learn!

 

Thanks for your help!

[MadMat]

For alcohol flames, there are some chemicals that aren't usually used in pyrotechnics that produce some nice colors. Lithium compounds will produce a nice discernible pink color. Boric acid will produce a green edge to the flames. I assume, in your research for this project you learned about how the electron orbital configuration of the colorant atoms is what determines the color produced. By heating the atoms in a flame, the electrons reach a higher energy state and they release a photon of a particular frequency when they drop back to ground state (surprisingly, that's how lasers/neon lights work!). Additionally, the color produced by putting a sample of an unknown chemical into a flame can be used for qualitative analysis (flame emission photometry).

Edited May 6, 2016 by MadMat

[mikeee]

You could research some basic star compositions and easily pump, press, cut or roll a few different colored stars.

A hollow tube and solid ram can easily "pump" a star.

These will burn at a slower rate for a longer period of time to allow your eye to adjust and "see" the colors.

It helps to burn these compositions without the natural sunlight present during viewing.

This is the main reason fireworks are presented at night or with low light levels present.

[Hawkster16]

MadMat:

 

I will likely try a few different salts, depending on what I can get my hands on. I have learned about this concept in both my chemistry and physics classes (my favorite classes), so I am already somewhat familiar with it. It is truly fascinating to me. Thank you for the insight!

 

mikeee:

 

Thanks for the advice! It sounds like especially in my situation, where there is not a lot of time, pumping stars would be the best method, since they dry quickly. Also since the color would be present for longer, that would be good too. It depends on what materials I can get a hold of, but I most likely will just be going with the alcohol flame tests. This summer though, when I have time I am interested in actually making and testing some stars.

[FlaMtnBkr]

For the alcohol, I believe methanol is the best and burns a light blue in color while some others have quite a bit of yellow that disturbs the colors. You can easily get methanol at an auto parts store where it's sold as gas line anti freeze. Heet is a common brand but not isoHeet as that is isopropanol.

 

Boric acid is sold in dollar stores as roach killer. It should be essentially pure boric acid and I believe the label usually calls it orthoboric acid. This should burn with a beautiful green flame and in my experience with methanol alcohol at night it is very pure green and not just the edges of the flame like stated above. I would be curious to know if a different alcohol was used.

 

Lithium chloride makes a very intense red that is very pretty. This will probably have to come from a chem supply house but I bet your chemistry lab has some.

 

I also really like calcium colored flames. It's an orangeish red color. It's been a few years and I'm forgetting which calcium salt is most commonly used.

 

The methanol alcohol alone burns a blue color but it is not a very deep blue though you can use it alone for a satisfactory blue. A copper salt didn't do much for me but I think I've heard of adding something else, possibly a chlorine donor, to help strengthen the blue color.

 

I don't remember if there is something for an easy purple flame or if a combination of a blue and red will work. But I have seen some pretty purple flames that I assumed were alcohol based.

 

Sodium will probably make a yellow but it will be a dirty yellow, almost like a candle flame. I don't know if a green and red can be combined to make a more lemon yellow but I imagine so.

 

Anyways, I need to run but thought this might help. Good luck!

[MadMat]

Agree with FlaMtnBkr on the alcohol. Methanol would be best, ethanol would be a close second and can be bought as denatured alcohol at hardware stores or paint supply stores. Whatever you do, don't use isopropanol, it burns with a yellow flame that will interfere with your colors. I'm not certain it will work, but you could try calcium chloride for the orangeish-red color. It can be obtained as a sidewalk de-icer that works at colder temperatures than ordinary salt. Just make sure it isnt a mixture as some brands are. I guess I sold lithium short, as it is a very pretty pinkish-red (almost magenta) color.

Edited May 6, 2016 by MadMat

[Hawkster16]

This afternoon I just did a quick test. I used isopropyl alcohol and I tried to dissolve CuSO4 into it and burn it (two things that my chemistry teacher had available and she thought that CuSO4 would be soluble in isopropyl alcohol).

 

The flame from plain alcohol was very yellow and the flame from the "solution" (though I don't think that CuSO4 is soluble at all in isopropyl alcohol) was still very yellow until almost all of the alcohol had burned and then the edges turned a little bluish-green (I think this was because the flame actually reached the powder that was at the bottom.

 

These results are explained by what FlaMtnBkr and MadMat said. I think that the isopropyl burned too yellow; I will have to pick up some methanol. I think that my chemicals will be more soluble in methanol also.

 

I will plan on getting some methanol and testing different things burning in them.

 

FlaMtnBkr:

 

Thank you very much for the insight! I wasn't sure exactly what chemicals to try, so this helps very much! I'll have to pick some of them up.

 

MadMat:

 

I didn't really research enough before I did my test today, so I used isopropyl alcohol and it was too yellow. I will have to pick up some methanol, CaCl, and LiCl. I think my teacher has some, but I'm not sure.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Hawkster16

[mikeee]

Another easy option would be to make some lance tubes and fill them with color comps.

Lance tubes are a good way to test color compositions and will burn for several minutes.

Lance tubes are easy to roll and easy to fill with basic screened comps.

[FlaMtnBkr]

The bottles of Heet brand methanol aren't too expensive so I buy a bottle for each color I'm making. It takes very little chemical for a bottle of alcohol. A level teaspoon (5 ml) was plenty from what I remember, and is only usually about 5 grams in weight and may even be more than needed. Which makes even one pound of chemical go a long ways and if your chemistry lab has them you should be able to get more than enough for your project. I let the bottles sit and shake them occasionally and even hard to dissolve chemicals will eventually fully saturate the alcohol and then I just pour directly from the bottle as needed.

 

An alcohol burner works well to burn and show off the colored flames. But even just a bowl of alcohol will work though it burns it up much quicker.

 

It has been a little while since I last did this so I'm just going by memory. Last time was a few years ago at my wedding where I filled tiki torches for the reception which was really more of a party with adult beverages and a whole hog I smoked in a pit for about 24 hours. They received a ton of comments as people aren't used to seeing a rainbow of colors produced in a flame.

[MrB]

If you want to get really crazy, dissolving the salts in methanol, and then soaking it up in logs, should let you create colored log fires. In most cases you wont be able to tell that the logs have been tampered with, before lighting them on fire. Well, that is, if you dry them out again. The methanol evaporates, the salt stays behind.

 

We are quite far from pyro at this point, but these colored log-fires were a source for entertainment when i tossed them in to the fire on woodburning stove demos. We did however buy the logs pre-prepared due to the amounts we used, and the supplier refused to give out specifics for the different colors.

B!

[Hawkster16]

mikeee:

 

I think I am going to go with the alcohol flame test. Thanks for the information though!

 

FlaMtnBkr:

 

I was thinking about doing it on a smaller scale, but I will definitely be picking up some methanol. Unfortunately, I don't think that the Chemistry lab has an alcohol burner (or at least I've never seen one there), but I was thinking about burning a small amount of solution in a watch glass so that the flame is wider and the color is more visible. Thank you for the advice!

 

MrB:

 

That sounds cool! I don't think I would have the time to dry them though (although I don't know how quickly the methanol would evaporate from the log), so I will just burn the solutions of salts and methanol.

[AzoMittle]

I think MrB has a great idea there! If you are worried about drying them what you can do is use bamboo slivers, you can buy them as shishkabob skewers, as oil diffuser reeds, or sometimes in the gardening department. Bamboo slivers will soak it up fast and dry just as fast, you can also put them in the oven to speed it up. This process should work fine with twigs and local undergrowth, just make sure it is dry.

 

I think the colored campfire is a ton of fun, it reminds me of going camping as a little kid and watching my father do what seemed like black magic. I actually make these mixes a couple times a year and store them next to the fireplace, they don't need an oxidizer making them much safer.

 

Here is a basic mix to get you started, it uses two types of copper, you want to leave them chunky like sea salt almost in order to get distinct blues and greens vs a monochromatic aqua. You can switch out the chlorine donor for whatever you have on hand. You can also play around with the copper salts, or mix in others like strontium or barium carbonate.

 

https://causescience.com/tag/mystical-fire/

 

65% cupric sulfate

23% cupric chloride

12% polyvinyl chloride

 

Simply mix together, coating the chunky copper compounds in the finely ground PVC dust. No binders or solvents necessary. Store in an airtight container. To use, throw about a tablespoon of mix into open fire, will give it color for up to around an hour.

Edited May 7, 2016 by AzoMittle

[BlueComet24]

You can get many kinds of colorant salts at pottery supply stores, so you don't have to pay for or wait for shipping. They often sell strontium, barium, and copper carbonates and oxides. Remember that many metal salts are toxic and put off toxic fumes when they burn.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I don't see how a camp fire would help him with a high school chemistry project. But they can be something fun if going on a boy scout camp out or something. I've actually seen a camp fire color product that was a box you were supposed to throw in whole. I opened it out of curiosity and it contained a piece of scrap copper pipe and a piece of scrap (?) garden hose split and stuffed in the pipe so it would slowly provide chlorine. If it was loose it would probably burn up much too fast. Guess this would work if you knew the hose contained a chlorine compound. But PVC pipe should definitely work. Anyways...

 

I would also suggest not doing these type things in a fire you are going to cook over at some point. I wouldn't even burn it in a fire pit that you cook over at times. This seems pretty basic but I've seen some crazy things over the years. Like people trying to cook over pine wood which is full of resin and is like cooking over a turpentine fire. Also seen guys soak a bunch of charcoal with a bottle of lighter fluid. They lit it and after about 5 minutes threw hamburger patties on the roaring yellow flames from the fluid. Nothing like cooking over a petroleum fire. I should have told them but was laughing too hard. They were frat boy types trying to impress some girls and I wish I could have stuck around for them all to bite into their burgers.

[Hawkster16]

I thought I should return and conclude my results now that I finally have the time (I have been very busy during finals). Last week I finally got some Heet (yellow bottle) and did my experiment. I dissolved a little Sodium chloride (the yellow should contrast nicely with the blue) in a sample of methanol and burned it next to a sample of pure methanol to show the color change what occurred. Of course it burned bright yellow and the change in color was very visible. I finished the rest of the project and I got an A. Thank you for the advice! I do intend to learn a lot more about fireworks (I have been doing a lot of reading) and plan to try my hand at making some this summer, but there is still a lot of learning until then!

Edited May 24, 2016 by Hawkster16

[AzoMittle]

I thought I should return and conclude my results now that I finally have the time (I have been very busy during finals). Last week I finally got some Heet (yellow bottle) and did my experiment. I dissolved a little Sodium chloride (the yellow should contrast nicely with the blue) in a sample of methanol and burned it next to a sample of pure methanol to show the color change what occurred. Of course it burned bright yellow and the change in color was very visible. I finished the rest of the project and I got an A. Thank you for the advice! I do intend to learn a lot more about fireworks (I have been doing a lot of reading) and plan to try my hand at making some this summer, but there is still a lot of learning until then!

Yo yo yo, you double posted yo. Hit delete/edit or send an admin a PM, or not, whatever.

 

Anywho, great job! Glad to hear you got a solid grade. If you're going to make fireworks (and it is awesome!) make sure you do so safely, that you have a space to work and the knowledge to do so (chemical incompatibilities, static, milling/mixing practices, storage/transportation, etc). Check your local and state laws, be smart about it. Start simple, black powder is the heart of a lot of pyro, learn to make quick burning BP, maybe make some Tiger Tail stars and a little star gun, just get comfortable with it before you go crazy. I'm not sure who the closest club to you is but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be PGI in Gillette, Wyoming. Join a club, there are several in the US and a couple in the midwest alone, it is the best thing you can possibly do as a pyro, new or old imho. You'll meet all kinds of crazy fun loving people, some not so fun loving ones, some beautiful product and some product that's not so great. Plus you don't have to worry about things like permits and licenses, or having to drag your own mortar rack and firing system out.

 

 

edit: There was a helpful thread where members tried to come up with a structured intro for what chemicals to get as you advance and what they will let you make, it was called Path of the Pyro or something like that. I'm trying to dig it up now but am having a hell of a time.

Edited May 24, 2016 by AzoMittle

[Hawkster16]

I will definitely check out what club I can join nearest here, but I do believe that it will be quite a drive. I live on a farm, so I have a lot of different spaces that could be used for this. I've been doing a little reading, but there is a ton that I still have to learn. Mostly I have just read a couple pages (they were very long though) on safety, incompatibilities, static, misfires, etc. I'll have to check into the laws, but from what I know, I am good in that department.

 

I'll definitely have to start out simple, but I've noticed in the past, I genuinely love exploring interesting things in great depth, and with fireworks, there is enough depth to last me a lifetime! Thank you very much for the pointers, as it is sometimes hard to know were to start.