two-gram explosive to shatter 70lb of concrete

[lloyd]

I was confronted by a claim that CaverCork could make an explosive SO powerful that 2g of it would demolish a 70lb solid concrete block into particles the size of pennies and half-dollars.

 

I contest this, and he refuses any evidence except his claim. This is my most recent request:

===================

 

"Well, then, take this as a tactful request: Please show us what you've accomplished.

 

Quite unlike what you wrote, I'm always open to new ideas. That's how I make my living.

 

You've made some very high claims. All I want is to see it in action (with enough detail such that nobody could claim the evidence was 'tampered with'). I happen to be agricultural by late upbringing and nature, also. I was an Army brat until age 11, then we moved to the country, and started growing crops and livestock for real. Not "large scale", but you can do a lot with 20 acres. I have a herd on the back-10 right now, and five in hay.

 

Farmers aren't 'lowly'; they're the backbone of our country.

 

C'mon! Get off your 'offended' position, and please show us. It's not an unreasonable request.

 

Lloyd"

 

-----------------

This is an important subject. If it's even remotely possible that such a "low explosive" (as he claimed) can have that much brissance and power, then the whole community needs to be warned of it.

 

Having a little experience with this stuff, and having challenged him on it, he has now "blown me off" as not being worthy of any proof.

 

All I ask is for a well-documented demo that is so-constructed that it leaves no doubt that his two grams of stuff actually accomplished what he says it will. I will then - politely - completely apologize for all my doubts.

 

LLoyd

Edited February 29, 2016 by lloyd

[BlueComet24]

That would be a truly impressive composition or chemical. I wouldn't have thought that even 2g of something like ONC could do that (although I have no experience with HE's). I would also love to see hard evidence of this composition in action.

You make many good points, Lloyd, especially the one about being warned of this extremely powerful composition. I would be very sorry to hear about someone being hurt because they weren't told about a known composition which is extremely brisant and possibly unstable or sensitive.

I myself am skeptical of the existence of such an explosive, and I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of a purportedly great and unheard-of material.

Edited February 29, 2016 by BlueComet24

[schroedinger]

Why would would you need to be doubtfull? If someone makes a claim, and isn't able to procide proof of this beeing true, there is every reason to have doubt, if he can proof it its just fair to acknowledge it and give him credits for that. Else it sounds like the old statistical "proof" that the reason for the election of George W. Bush where natural disasters occuring the last 5 years before election in the states he won or saying i talk to god.

[lloyd]

Schroe, I hope this was in jest. I will apologize to him if he can demonstrate his claim authentically. I don't need 'statistical proof', just some reasonable evidence in the form of a demo, properly documented.

 

Of course, it's hard to discern wry humor in this medium, so maybe you were giving me a ribbing! <G>

 

Lloyd

[memo]

i could lay 2 grams chunk of anfo on a 70 pound block of concrete. it would do nothing. I think he shot his mouth off and is to( embareassed) to back down. in his statement he came off as the self proclaimed savior of the caving world.

[schroedinger]

Yes i think you didn't get it right, the statitistiscal proof is ofc just a joke, the quoted statistic is really one where you can find a correlation of higher 0.7, which is a common factor in statitics to claim something proven, but in this scenario it is nonsense because there is no real correlation between the events.

 

What i wanted to express more, is that improvement is commonly made by questioning new developments (or call it doubting)). Doubt is one of the most important factors in developping new things. Cause if there was no doubt it is easy to e,g. Take wrong claims for real. Just like someone "proved" the existence of the Higgs particle by theoretical means, but it the existence had to be proofed in real. Well it got found at the CERN.

But the same goes for Planet X (9. Planet of our sun system), it's existence can be "prooven" by theory but other theory give a reasons to doubt it. In either case noone who doubt the theory (claim) has to apologize for doubting, but to acknowledge and accept something that has been proven.

[schroedinger]

i could lay 2 grams chunk of anfo on a 70 pound block of concrete. it would do nothing. I think he shot his mouth off and is to( embareassed) to back down. in his statement he came off as the self proclaimed savior of the caving world.

Well what he claims to be doing, if it is possivle, is propably done by inserting the charge into a hole, but never sitting on top of it. If yoj burst from the inside with such a small charge i would eather expect something like copper tetraminenitrate to work better then anfo.

[lloyd]

I appreciate your correct assessment of the value of doubt. It's most difficult of all to doubt your own findings, but when you do, good things come.

 

BTW... you heard that Schrödinger actually hated his wife's cat.

 

A friend and fellow puzzler of physics questioned him, to whit: "Erwin, it's perfectly clear that the cat could be either alive OR dead. To think that it is both at once is purely fantastic".

 

In reply: "Maybe, but the important thing is that the damned cat is taped-shut inside a box!"

 

But again... I get sidetracked. WHERE is this 2-gram demolition charge????

 

Lloyd

[lloyd]

i would eather expect something like copper tetraminenitrate to work better then anfo.

----------

ANFO would be a poor choice. It's a low-velocity "high explosive", better at gas generation than brissance, and best suited to heaving rather than fracturing.

 

High-percentage dynamites are considerably more brissant than ANFO, and produce nearly 100% gaseous decomposition products. But even 100% nitroglycerine would not do what he claims.

 

LLoyd

[OldMarine]

Well, I can shatter a 70 lb boulder with only a few ounces of pure tap water!

 

Hehe, it might take a couple of hard winters to do it but it works.

[memo]

all I can say is what I have done, worked in a open pit mine and was the low guy on the totem pole, when we had over size rock it was my pleasure to drill and shot them. I loaded them light after drilling them with a jack leg . a small boulder maybe 500 pounds used about a 1/2 stick of 1 inch 60 % to break the rock. it was stemmed and it just popped the rock not blast it every where. what does a 1/2 stick of 60% weigh ? 100 grams 200 grams ?

[schroedinger]

 

But again... I get sidetracked. WHERE is this 2-gram demolition charge????

 

Lloyd

Maybe it's a baby black hole and still needs to grow, to crack the concrete by gravity

[MrB]

Silly... I got to views on this.

 

2gr of nothing would render concrete blocks to concrete nuggets. (Anything that actually gets close to, is to be posted in the HE section.) For that reason alone, this thread serves no real purpose, other then cementing peoples opinions on one and other. Lloyd is for an unknown reason pushing this a bit far. He's right, there is no 2gr LE that will do what has been suggested, there simply isn't enough energy there. you need a fairly intense shock-wave to crush rock this way. Splitting it, turning some of it, just around the drilled hole to sand, possible, perhaps. So, this thread isn't about getting "facts" about the explosive. Personally i don't know what it's about. You guys have personal history?

 

On the other hand. While nothing can do the suggested job, I'm not exactly shocked that people wouldn't want to post images, or video. When was the last time you saw me post anything i didn't draw on the computer? Talking (writing) about shit is one thing, leaving images of shit you did, isn't going to help you the day "they" come for you.

 

 

High-percentage dynamites are considerably more brissant than ANFO, and produce nearly 100% gaseous decomposition products. But even 100% nitroglycerine would not do what he claims.

 

From my experience... No. It could turn a bit of it back to sand, and split the concrete block in to a few chunks. But that sort of conversation belongs in HE.

Anyway, it's pointless. There just isn't enough "bang" in LE to make it happen. But the fact that you know this, and still push the topic... why? Just end it. There is nothing to gain from trying to make each other look like fools.

 

 

Well, I can shatter a 70 lb boulder with only a few ounces of pure tap water!

Hehe, it might take a couple of hard winters to do it but it works.

I can do it in 2 hours, using your tapwater... (and a good size fire)
BBQ, anyone?

B!

[OldMarine]

Half a stick generally weighs about ¼ lb.

[schroedinger]

all I can say is what I have done, worked in a open pit mine and was the low guy on the totem pole, when we had over size rock it was my pleasure to drill and shot them. I loaded them light after drilling them with a jack leg . a small boulder maybe 500 pounds used about a 1/2 stick of 1 inch 60 % to break the rock. it was stemmed and it just popped the rock not blast it every where. what does a 1/2 stick of 60% weigh ? 100 grams 200 grams ?

Yes and did it shutter the rock into hundredds of small pieces or did it more or less create a couple big lumps?

[lloyd]

Yeah, Memo, I know. But we're not talking 500lb of granite; he claims only 70lb of properly cured concrete, and to his credit, bored to the middle.

 

Even then, we know if it fractured at all, it would be in two or three pieces, not reduced to coin-sized fragments!

 

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

MrB, if I recall, Hannibal used fire along with water and vinegar (?? On the vinegar) to reduce boulders while crossing the alps. A link:

 

http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/archaeolog/2007/06/hannibals_engineers_and_livy_o.html

[lloyd]

MrB,

It's really not 'personal'. I can't convince you of that, but it's true. It has to do with the fact that he's misleading folks who are new to this art. (and I'll bet he is, too!) For all I know, he might have confused ounces with grams.

 

All I really wanted to see happen is to have him admit that it was a farce, so as not to confuse and mislead others who might have even less experience than he demonstrates. We need that confusion as much as we need injuries or criminal prosecutions among our ranks.

 

It's not personal with him... I don't know him from Adam, and only encountered him yesterday. I'm really not easily offended, personally. I've spent some time marching this Earth, and know that most of what comes from the mouths of men is silliness.

 

But it IS a personal mission of mine to have deliberate misinformation that affects our hobby debunked. I think it both detracts from the art, and also attracts undue government scrutiny.

 

I can drop it; but it seems some fun to see folks actually contributing personal HE experiences to the LE thread! <G>

 

Lloyd

Edited March 1, 2016 by lloyd

[MrB]

It's really not 'personal'. I can't convince you of that, but it's true.

 

Oh i'm a pushover. If you say so, it's true. I was only asking since it would make for an explainable reason.

 

 

I can drop it; but it seems some fun to see folks actually contributing personal HE experiences to the LE thread! <G>

 

Yeah. I have NO IDEA why that is. Quit tempting me people. I quit illegal manufacturing of HE, and primary explosives, so i wouldn't get thrown in jail for terrorist activity... Which i now will be, since i own perchlorates. Life really is a bitch. And when ever she see's you having fun, she tries to kill it.

Ain't happening bitch, i will have fun, even if it kills me.

 

Joking aside... Do what you will. I doubt he will respond in here, and since it's nearing 3 in the morning here, i'll head to bed. I'll read up in the morning. Take care everyone.

B!

[Fulmen]

I'm with Lloyd on this one, 2g of anything won't do what's being claimed. 70lbs of concrete would be a cube 25cm across, I can't think of any explosive that would disintegrate that with only 2g. I have tried most explosives from dynamite to HMX one time or another, AND tested concrete for a living for a few years, so I know what to expect from both.

[DavidF]

Ah, you guys are all a bunch of doubters, especially Lloyd! Think outside the box for a second like I do! It's all about placement and detonation method. First you take the 70lb block of properly cured concrete, and place it in front of a granite slab 3 feet thick- with me so far? Keep in mind the block has a hole going to the middle of the block. The hole is faced away from the slab. Then the 2 grams of explosive is taped to the surface of the concrete, over the hole. Then take a wrecking ball, previously lined up with the block, and pull it back- way back. Let 'er rip. Bam! Reduced to chunks! The wrecking ball will have produced the confinement necessary to allow the 2 grams of explosive to reach its full potential. It may even have other benefits. Anything can be done if you have imagination. You guys got confused, and focused your attention on the 2 grams, when you should have been looking at the wrecking ball and backstop. I'm here all week....

Edited March 1, 2016 by DavidF

[BlueComet24]

A wrecking ball, huh? I was thinking that if it were an HE it would just take a reeaally big blasting cap.

[lloyd]

Blue,

I was figuring 2g of the 'main charge', a 100gram booster, and an M6 cap might just do it.

 

IN any case, Mr. CaverCork seems to be begging Mumbles to be 'let out of the fold'. That sort-of confuses me, too. How do you 'unsubscribe' from a free forum? Would just not posting and not reading anyone else's posts be somehow considered to be 'cheating'?

 

Anyway... I guess he won't be showing us any data.

 

LLoyd

[stix]

Icarus?

[lloyd]

Yeah, except this one started out with some especially low-melting-temperature wax!

 

Lloyd