What am i doing wrong?(BP making)

[WannabePyroPro]

Hello there!

Im new to pyrotechnics, and cant get my bp right..

Im using the CIA-method.

 

First i grind my charcoal for a good 2minutes in a coffee grinder(grill coal from the local supermarket, from leaf trees)

Then i put in the sulphur and grind about 30 seconds.

After that i solve 77grams of kno3 in 50ml of water, until there is no crystals left, pour in the 15g carcoal and 10g sulphur and stir until it solves, pour in 100ml acetone.

Pour it into a coffee filter and press out as much liquid as i can. The liquid is colorless, that means the chemicals isnt coming out right? And at last i granulate it.

 

For some reason it burns slow.. My shells (2" beginner-shells) never gets a good spread, kind of waterfall-ish...

And for my ~30g shells i need 10-15g lift charge. I do not use lift cup if it matters, i just have the bp loose in the bottom, and a fuse hole on the mortar-wall. As i dont have access to Quickmatch :/

 

I dont have access to potassium perchlorate so i cant make whistle mix, and i dont feel educated nor have i safery equipments enough to make flash powder, its too scary for me with the risk of static electricity.

 

Sorry for bad english, greetings from Sweden!

[WannabePyroPro]

Accidently posted two of the same topic, sorry

[Nessalco]

Ball milling is the way to go for good BP. You can make serviceable BP by screen mixing.

 

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/Hand-Mixed-Black-Powder.asp

 

Kevin

[Stef727]

Ok so this are the things you are doing wrong:

 

1st the charcoal you are using isn't good for Bp, its probably made out of a hard wood that burns slow, for black powder you need a wood that is soft and burns fast (like willow spruce balsa vine etc).

2nd you should ballmill it, the finer the chemicals the better it burns.

 

This is a good BP tutorial https://youtu.be/N8Fn12MnZcs

 

 

And here a tutorial on how to make good charocal

Edited January 10, 2016 by Stef727

[mikeee]

You also need to granulate your black powder after ball milling is complete.

There are several methods used to accomplish this.

Listed below is a good link to describe the different grades of powder used for fireworks.

 

http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/blackpowder.html

[WannabePyroPro]

Thank you all!

Yes i know ballmilling is the best way to do it, and that My charcoal is not optimal. But ive heard from many pyrotechnichians that coffee grinder and grill-charcoal would be good enough. I guess not.

 

Well, i cant afford a ballmill right now, im only 18 and studying

But i will for sure try making my own charcoal!

 

What do you think about the CIA-method? And could i use more kno3 to make a faster burning bp, until i get a ballmill? Like 81/15/10 or something? I really dont want to make flash powder if its avoidable, is it possible to get a good spread with only good BP?

Thanks mates!

[OldMarine]

If you order some airfloat charcoal, grind your kno3 in a coffee mill then screen mix all 3 ingredients you'll have a usable BP. Works for fountains and drivers for me.

[lloyd]

Pat,

He's complaining about it's not working for burst. You can make useful wheel drivers from simple rough-mix.

 

Wannabe, you may not be able to afford a purchased ball mill, but you certainly could afford one if you built it yourself from "scrounged" parts.

 

Lloyd

Edited January 10, 2016 by lloyd

[Stef727]

 

 

Even if the ballmill you build is total crap, it will still be way better than screening it.

 

Btw I also use a homemade ballmill, it mills max 300g of Bp at a time, but it works fine for my needs.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Stef727

[Andres1511]

I build a ball mill when I was 16 from old stuff. Old engine from my grandparents farm, wine chest, some steel bars, plastic tube, rubber band... It works great !

I'm using BBQ charcoal too & my BP is pretty hot. You have to select the soft pieces out of the bag, and leave the rest for the bbq. The soft charcoal actually feels... softer. It isn't shiny too, hard charcoal sometimes is.

[Col]

There`s a ready made ballmill hiding inside every printer, you just have to strip away the surplus bits and bobs.

[WannabePyroPro]

Heres a vid:

https://vid.me/QKm2

 

For that lift i need 10-15grams of bp, for a 30grams 2" shell.. Shouldnt it be 10% the weight?

And as you can see, no impressive burst there..

 

And here a couple grams of My bp(bad quality video)

https://vid.me/YPCc

Edited January 12, 2016 by WannabePyroPro

[lloyd]

Wannabe,

You don't have to PROVE your powder sucks to us! When you described how you make it, it was a given that it would not work well.

 

Instead of asking us to critique your failures, try making powder the right way.

 

I'm sorry... but you've gotten good advice, and all you're doing is saying, "I can't". Well, then, you can't make pyro. Doing it "right" is all there is. Anything else is wasting time and being unsafe.

 

Lloyd

[WannabePyroPro]

Wannabe,

You don't have to PROVE your powder sucks to us! When you described how you make it, it was a given that it would not work well.

 

Instead of asking us to critique your failures, try making powder the right way.

 

I'm sorry... but you've gotten good advice, and all you're doing is saying, "I can't". Well, then, you can't make pyro. Doing it "right" is all there is. Anything else is wasting time and being unsafe.

 

Lloyd

Maybe you missunderstood me, i will get myself a ballmill(dont have the aquipment for making My own actually)

But until then, im just looking for how to improve my BP until i have the right tools

 

Im not trying to prove anything, just think on the latest vid, i think my bp looks OK. And im thinking maybe its just bad pasting and the fact that i dont use lift cup(drilled hole in bottom of mortar)

Best regards from Sweden

Edited January 12, 2016 by WannabePyroPro

[lloyd]

"But until then, im just looking for how to improve my BP until i have the right tools"

-0-

Someone who wanted it would FIND the tools/people/equipment to do it.

 

You can get away with poor lift by using enough of it, sometimes (no, not always). You CANNOT get away with poor burst in a shell that small.

 

If you just refuse to make BP correctly, then use whistle mix for burst. (and be damned-careful)

 

Lloyd

[WannabePyroPro]

Tomorrow i will try my homemade charcoal also!

 

But is the CIA-method that bad? I know people shooting 4 inch+ shells with "CIA-powder"

Thank you all!

[lloyd]

"But is the CIA-method that bad?"

------------

No, not for 8" shells! 'Works fine there. Blow up a tractor trailer full of CIA powder, and it might even go 'bang' (a little).

 

I do this for a living. I've made combustible powders 'most any way you could imagine. The CIA method is OK for making (that 'b' word) in 'hard' containers and quantities above a couple of pounds. It's absolutely USELESS for small shells (and I'll include 4"). If those 'people' you know claim it's working, either they are lying, or don't know what 'working' means.

 

Lloyd

[WannabePyroPro]

"But until then, im just looking for how to improve my BP until i have the right tools"

-0-

Someone who wanted it would FIND the tools/people/equipment to do it.

 

You can get away with poor lift by using enough of it, sometimes (no, not always). You CANNOT get away with poor burst in a shell that small.

 

If you just refuse to make BP correctly, then use whistle mix for burst. (and be damned-careful)

 

Lloyd

Yes thats true, but im low on money and i dont have stuff home to build from. And my girlfriend has ger birthday soon, so right now its pretty much impossible.

[WannabePyroPro]

"But is the CIA-method that bad?"

------------

No, not for 8" shells! 'Works fine there. Blow up a tractor trailer full of CIA powder, and it might even go 'bang' (a little).

 

I do this for a living. I've made combustible powders 'most any way you could imagine. The CIA method is OK for making (that 'b' word) in 'hard' containers and quantities above a couple of pounds. It's absolutely USELESS for small shells (and I'll include 4"). If those 'people' you know claim it's working, either they are lying, or don't know what 'working' means.

 

Lloyd

Well, im not trying to be disredpectful or anything if it seems that way, i just dont know much about pyro basicly. On the biggest swedish Pyro forum, CIA-powder is concidered good BP.. Well i guess ill just Wait until i get myself a real ballmill, sont have the guts to play around with flash powder or whistle

 

Maybe put bottles with lead balls and charcoal in my drying tumbler?

Thank you!

Edited January 12, 2016 by WannabePyroPro

[Seymour]

You can make "CIA" BP that is good enough for lift with reactive charcoal that is bought pre ball milled... and so long as it is given extra confinement. Also there is what many people call "really really good BP" which is to me and other people who have done it properly actually "only just passable", or even "almost good enough, but not quite".

 

People exaggerate, especially when they have not experienced really good results. Let's face it, who here didn't get really excited about some early compositions we made which we look back at as not that great.

 

My advice while you wait until you have your ball mill is to not yet try to improve your BP. Seriously, once you have a ball mill, any small steps you made will not be significant, with one exception, and that is making your own charcoal.

 

There is plenty of info about wood to use, and many woods are great. I don't know what part of Sweden you are in, but I'm pretty confident you will have several varieties of willow, as well as plum, and probably Alder, Poplar and Paulownia if you look in the right places.

 

Make fireworks that do not require a ball mill.

 

For years my main rockets used 60% KNO3 (powdered in a coffee grinder), 30% Pine charcoal (from the supermarket, also ground in a coffee grinder) and 10% Sulfur, screened together with the other two. I rammed this mix in to a tube, and carefully bored out a core by twisting a drill bit 1/3rd the tubes inside diameter using my fingers. The depth of the core depends on your batch of fuel and will need to be discovered with trial and error, but will probably be several times the tubes ID.

 

The same mix also made lovely fountains. Make fountains! You can use them to make waterfalls and wheels.

 

Do you have Atomised Al? You can make glitter stars!

Edited January 12, 2016 by Seymour

[braddsn]

Wannabe, just be patient. IF you can't afford a ball mill right now, then be patient and wait for it. I see no possible way around having a ball mill in this hobby. You will get there. Save up 50-60 bucks for a Harbor Freight mill, or build your own. Then you will need the lead media, which ultimately will probably cost nearly as much as the mill. BUT, once you have a mill, you are on your way! The process in which you made bp is not going to cut it. You would be better off screen mixing, but even then, it won't be fast enough to break a shell properly. Good luck!

[schroedinger]

Wannabe sonce you are EU based, skip looking for a HF type mill they are just not available here. Lortone and similar priced are available but way to expensive. It is cheaper and better to just buy a kingty kt-2000 or bigger direct from china. Costs 100 € with shipping and works straight from the box on speed setting two. It makes about 1 pound of bp in a single run (3h) and needs 2.5 kg of ceramic media (20mm). The resulting bp is faster then commercial powder.

 

If you use the cia method you will run into the problem of not fine enough charcoal without a ball mill. You certainly can use a blender but the results won't be very good. If you want to use the cia powder for lift, you need to granulate it and use confinement for ok results. The best way to do so is to use a lift maron.

 

Also like allready mentioned briquette charcoa, is only good for sparks not for lift or burst build yourself a TLUD it cost nothing but time and some old paint cans. A 20 L TLUDjsa gokd size

[MrB]

On the biggest swedish Pyro forum, CIA-powder is concidered good BP..

 

Oh no it aint. And thats why you are here.

Ok, so your part telling the truth. Most people on that forum seam oblivious to the fact that you need different things from BP for different work to happen. I told you you needed to work on your BP, and you went out in search for more information, and ended up here, without more directions. That is a good sign, you are, at least to some extent, trying. But just as i told you over there, you need a ball mill, if this is going to be a hobby of yours. I also strongly suggest against Lloyds suggestion of using whistle for burst, regardless of how careful you try to be. I'm not convinced you got a source for (per)chlorates anyway, so might as well stay away.

 

 

It is cheaper and better to just buy a kingty kt-2000 or bigger direct from china. Costs 100 € with shipping and works straight from the box on speed setting two. It makes about 1 pound of bp in a single run (3h) and needs 2.5 kg of ceramic media (20mm). The resulting bp is faster then commercial powder.

 

I take it you have tried these? I have, for what ever reason, irrational discarded them as not quite up for the task, mostly based on the barrel being see-through plastic.

I say irrationally, since we know PVC barrels, and rubber, or even rubber lined ones are up for the task. Would be nice to hear from someone who's been using them, since they are... dirt cheap.

B!

[WannabePyroPro]

 

Oh no it aint. And thats why you are here.

Ok, so your part telling the truth. Most people on that forum seam oblivious to the fact that you need different things from BP for different work to happen. I told you you needed to work on your BP, and you went out in search for more information, and ended up here, without more directions. That is a good sign, you are, at least to some extent, trying. But just as i told you over there, you need a ball mill, if this is going to be a hobby of yours. I also strongly suggest against Lloyds suggestion of using whistle for burst, regardless of how careful you try to be. I'm not convinced you got a source for (per)chlorates anyway, so might as well stay away.

 

 

 

I take it you have tried these? I have, for what ever reason, irrational discarded them as not quite up for the task, mostly based on the barrel being see-through plastic.

I say irrationally, since we know PVC barrels, and rubber, or even rubber lined ones are up for the task. Would be nice to hear from someone who's been using them, since they are... dirt cheap.

B!

Haha så du hänger här med!

Yes i am trying, and will indeed get myself a ballmill, just so many different opinions.. Even Ned Gorski claims un-ballmilled BP is a working substitute. As I've been told here, i think it would do for bigger shells, but 2-4" i guess a ballmill is essential. I don't have access to perchlorate, no, but i will leave flash powder and whistle for the future, when i have more real life experience in pyrotechnics.

[lloyd]

Even Ned Gorski claims un-ballmilled BP is a working substitute.

---------------

I'm a personal friend of Ned's. He does NOT claim rough-mix or CIA powder is a "substitute" for milled powder. He says it will work for some things.

 

It's common to fill larger shells (especially Italian-style canisters) with granulated polverone, which is a rough-mix powder. The powder Ned uses for most work is milled, but then damp-granulated, instead of pressing and corning.

 

Lloyd