Sparx88 Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 This is truely a blessing from God. OMG my eyes got wet. http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/this-dad-saved-his-son%E2%80%99s-life-by-holding-up-a-hospital-at-gunpoint/ar-BBnRwRy?li=BBnba9O
Andres1511 Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 How the f*ck can someone enter a hospital with a gun. Crazy Americans.
lloyd Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Andres,It's neither illegal nor "antagonistic" to carry a gun in a state that authorizes citizens to do so. Nearly every citizen empowered to carry a weapon does so safely and carefully, and doing so, they protect other citizens from violence they might otherwise have to submit to. Europeans have lost the perspective of what a "free society" should be allowed to do. In the USA, (even with our current politics) it's still the people who decide what laws and restrictions apply. Lloyd
Arthur Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 In the UK seriously threatening a doctor would get you permanently removed from their practise list, threatening at a hospital could and has got people banned from the health service.
lloyd Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Well, that particular instance was an extraordinary one that should not have happened (on the part of both parties). It was inexcusable for the staff to declare the kid brain-dead while he still exhibited responses to stimulae, and it was also inexcusable for the dad to have threatened the staff (while drunk) with a weapon. It's really only lucky that the event had a good outcome. That said, it's still not unreasonable for a responsible citizen to carry a weapon, and that's a concept that's been totally lost in all of Europe. Armed responsible citizens do not threaten, and only draw their weapons in response to deadly threats. And they should be allowed to defend against such, no matter what. Lloyd
nater Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Lloyd is absolutely correct. I am shocked about the events of this story. One cannot terminally wean a patient without permission from whomever has medical power of attorney. A brain flow study is the proof of an individual being brain dead (and thus legally dead, even in the presence of life support maintaining ventilation and feedings.) Medical practitioners and caregivers need to perform these tests and discuss the results and treatment options in a tactful manner. "Outbursts" from distraught family members are quite common. It is lucky that the outcome of this was positive. Violence towards medical staff is too common. Our hospital employs an armed police department for security. Many of us medics arms ourselves in some manner too for defense if needed.
taiwanluthiers Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 The medical staff was going to take the person off life support, therefore killing him. I'd say that's a justified response to a deadly threat.
Andres1511 Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I'm totally with you when you say the medical staff was about to do something that was wrong, like completely wrong. And about the guns, it's pretty simple. If citizens don't carry guns, they would not encounter deadly threats. Just because everyone wears guns, there is a serious risk of someone getting out of his mind or getting drunk and angry and pulling his gun. If nobody has guns, this would not happen. The more people have guns, the higher the risk to encounter a deadly threat. Ofcourse, with everybody carrying a gun, I would want one too. You see, an endless negative spiral of guns and more guns. But don't forget, guns are made to kill someone. To take their life. I think this is seriously wrong. And if you still don't believe me, look at the stats. Casualties by guns in Europe vs USA. I think you get it know, giving everyone guns is not a good idea, because not everyone can handle them correctly, or control themselves AT ALL TIMES when carrying a gun. Last but not least, little example. I'm from Belgium. You can have a weapon here when you obtain a license (not that easy, total screen, background and mental health). You aren't allowed to carry it, it should be at home, at the shooting range (you have to be a member of a shooting club) or in your car when driving to the shooting range. If you carry your gun in public, and police sees you do, you'll get arrested, go to jail for a short time or get a fine, and loose your weapon license and weapon. Why ? Because you, carrying a gun, are a danger for the people around you and that can't be tolerated.
lloyd Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 "If citizens don't carry guns, they would not encounter deadly threats"------------------------------I have to laugh at such perverse logic! (Hah!) I presume, by your standard, if you outlaw weapons for law-abiding citizens, then criminals will also obey your edict scrupulously. Is that correct? Or would it just possibly result in a situation where only criminals were armed, and the citizenry had no defenses against them? (I don't know why I'm bothering... sigh...) Besides, the purpose of a law-abiding US citizen's right to bear arms only 'bears' diagonally on the issue of self-defense against individuals. There's a deeper, constitutional purpose to it that our founders decided was important enough to make into a basic tenet of American life. LLoyd
nater Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) The medical staff was going to take the person off life support, therefore killing him. I'd say that's a justified response to a deadly threat.There is a place worse than death, and that is remaining on mechanical ventilators and tube feedings while your body is chemically sedated and paralyzed. I have placed people on these machines, knowing their chances of being successfully weaned off them was slim. I have also terminally weaned patients we could not save, knowing full well they would die soon. We can keep someone's body alive, but not always their brain and soul. We have machines that can nourish the body, replace the heart with a continuously flowing pump, filter the blood when the kidneys fail, breathe for someone when they are too exhausted or when their brain fails to tell the lungs to work, we can even bypass the heart and lungs all together and perfuse oxygen in the blood outside their body and put it back in. We cannot replace brain cells or repair those nerve connections if they damaged or dead. It is sad to see people stuck in these states. It would be morally reprehensible for me to project my beliefs onto my patients, so I strive to provide as much or as little care as they want. This does not make me, or any other critical care health provider a monster or a murderer and we do not deserve someone responding to our difficult job with deadly force. Edited December 31, 2015 by nater
MrB Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 The more people have guns, the higher the risk to encounter a deadly threat. Yes. I totaly agree. Nobody ever was beat to death with a blunt object, or stabbed to death by pointy sharp ones. Guns are the single cause for deadly threats. And if you still don't believe me, look at the stats. Casualties by guns in Europe vs USA. I think you get it know, giving everyone guns is not a good idea, because not everyone can handle them correctly, or control themselves AT ALL TIMES when carrying a gun. Not only can i prove your wrong, i can also show you that your coming at this from a bad angle. All i have to say is this: "Switzerland"There. It's done. Guess i should explain what i just said tho. Thats going to take a bit more.A European country that had a law mandating that everyone who at some point did military service has to store his, or her, weapon, in their home, along with ammunition, and military clothing. And these aren't your 1750's ball and powder muskets, but military weapons made for hunting humans. In total there is an estimated 3 million guns and rifles in Switzerland homes, thats more then one for every 3 people. There is over 400.000 registered fully automatic weapons, in private homes. The law mandating that you should have weapon and ammo stored at home has been changed. Your now allowed to, if you want to, and the government will no longer provide you with ammo for it. On the other hand your now allowed to use it for shooting, such as practice, and your expected to buy your own ammunition...Now... Given your view that guns is the sole issue, why isn't Switzerland just below USA in violent crimes statistics? Personally i have a completely different theory. Guns isn't the problem. It's not even the majority of the people with guns, that is the root of the problem. It's based in a minority of people, often equipped with illegal guns, since they have illegal intentions with the guns. This minority of people have a MAJOR deficiency making them unfit for ANY society. If they couldn't get their hands on guns, they would still cause just as many violent acts of crime, and the dead, or hurt people from these acts, would be just as many. They often grow up in a poor community, early on get involved with petty crime, and more often then not end up getting sucked in to gangs. THATS the issue, the gang-mentality that lets people use any means available to get what ever they want. You can claim that it comes from the evil within people, or just from desperation, it doesn't really matter, since it cant be "fixed" easily. I'd suggest making the poor communities go away, and giving everyone a fair chance as a working fix, but the reality is that USA has... issues. Suddenly giving everyone a useful education, and somehow making everyone earn enough money to get rid of poverty, isn't likely. So then were back to square on.Oh, and banning guns wont do jack shit. The majority of violent crimes already is committed with illegal, (unregistered, stolen, guns) meaning a law just means people cant defend them self. It would be morally reprehensible for me to project my beliefs onto my patients, so I strive to provide as much or as little care as they want. This does not make me, or any other critical care health provider a monster or a murderer and we do not deserve someone responding to our difficult job with deadly force. Generally speaking? No, of course not. But the fact is that in this case, they were aiming to kill a patient that within a very short time came back and did a total recovery. Someone, somewhere screwed up big time. Dads shouldn't have to defend a survivor with guns in a hospital. I'm inclined to give this dad a big thumbs up. Besides, the purpose of a law-abiding US citizen's right to bear arms only 'bears' diagonally on the issue of self-defense against individuals. There's a deeper, constitutional purpose to it that our founders decided was important enough to make into a basic tenet of American life. Thats probably the one great thing about America. The governing statute specifically states that the people should bear arms, with the intent to make sure that a rebellion always remains a possibility. Liberty renewed with the blood of tyrants, indeed.B! 1
nater Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 This case does not even make sense. There are many facts omitted due to HIPPA that would likely clear it up. I cannot comprehend a medical professional who would so quickly want to terminally wean a young stroke victim. I CAN comprehend the drunk father not really listening to the medical staff. People in these circumstances often do not comprehend what you are telling them. They will even proceed to tell their family the opposite or something entirely unrelated as they attempt to understand what is happening. Imagine a doctor explaining the tests that needed to be done to prove brain death and then determine the next course of action. What the family hears is that scary word "brain dead". Rather than logically want more testing, they immediately proceed to the anger stage of grieving and attack the caregiver. So, what was actually done for this young man? We don't know and will never know due privacy laws. We will only have one side of the story because the caregivers lips are legally sealed.
Andres1511 Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 What I'm reading here is so... Wow. Intresting how someone can think so differently. What's your right ofcourse. I just have a problem with what you say lloyd and MrB. With this: "Yes. I totaly agree. Nobody ever was beat to death with a blunt object, or stabbed to death by pointy sharp ones. Guns are the single cause for deadly threats." Ignoring the Sarcasm (please let's keep this an adult discussion, we're not gonna chance anything): ofcourse this happens. People get into fights here as often as in the US. But we don't start shooting at eachother, because we don't have guns. When there are no guns nearby, when people see 2 men in a fight, they will try to get them apart. If they have knifes, which ofcourse happens, they don't stab eachother to dead in most of the cases. If you shoot one time with a gun, chance he's gonna die is pretty big. It's not that easy to stab someone to dead. It is easy to shoot someone dead. About the criminals and illegal guns: criminals here seldom make the effort to buy a gun. Illegal guns are rare, very expensive, short on ammo. Because we have a good functioning police system. (In general). And because civilians don't carry guns, as a criminal you aren't impressed by them. So why would you need one, to shoot the police when they arrive ? That's an even worse idea. But okay, some criminals do have guns. So what, we should let civilians buy guns to let them protect against this criminals, and just take all the accidents that come along with them for granted ? Just so we could protect ourselve from the few criminals ? Switserland: bad comparison. Really. All the men with those weapons have gone trough military training, and train every year. Every men in Switserland has been in the army. It's Switserland's way to have a strong army on "low" budget. Last but not least. Think of you, living in a normal sized village. Like 30 000 inhabitants. Nothing special, average crime rate etc. Where would you feel the safest: everyone has a gun, only the police has guns.
lloyd Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 "If you shoot one time with a gun, chance he's gonna die is pretty big"-------------------I'm TRYING hard to "keep this civil", but it's really hard not to laugh at such a statement! Yes, a trained shooter shooting to kill will usually kill. That's what a gun is for, if used correctly -- not as a threat, nor even a deterrent. But most 'people' (and I'll include thugs and gang members, although I don't consider them human) are not trained shooters... most usually, they cause flesh wounds or miss entirely over the course of a full-emptied clip! The preponderance of instances do NOT result in death. Yes, of course we have outright deliberate killings, where a gun is held to someone's head before firing. But if outright killing is your intent, you can do it with a club or knife, also. I was trained to kill with a knife. Most thugs are not, they just "stick and run"; 'bout the same as they do with a gun. Lloyd
nater Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Andres, most people who get shot by a gun don't die. People who want to commit violent acts will do so with whatever means they can find. The culture is the problem, not the tool. I live in a metropolitan area of just over 600,000 people with about 1.5 million people served by my hospital. Despite the population, we have a large rural area too. I once was on an ambulance call and faced an angry mob with shotguns and pitchforks, my closest police backup was 20 miles away. Another time recently a medic friend of mine backed up a police officer in need because his backup was 10 miles away. So, do you prefer to wait for help or help yourself?
lloyd Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Andres,I might add that Nater is a profession emergency care-giver, and sees enough of this type of situation to know. And, I know you do not make such statements out of experience, but rather are parroting the stuff your gun-prohibiting government would like you to think. Governments seldom tell the truth. Lloyd
taiwanluthiers Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I think the problem is many Europeans tend to see the state as their provider and caregiver, so they also tend to regurgitate everything they say. If the state determines that anyone carrying a gun (other than LE/military) is a threat, they wholeheartedly agree. It also explains why most European states, except Switzerland (which is not in the EU) have rather restrictive gun laws compared to the US. They also have lots of government assistance programs and high taxes... a liberal's heaven. When I was in Europe that was how people think, they practically worship their government. It's also why they can create laws to ban all "explosive precursor". Americans on the other hand tend to have mistrust for their government and prefers to keep them on a tight leash, for good reason too. As crazy as it sounds it's also one reason why government conspiracies are so common here (but you'll almost never hear of government conspiracies in Europe, except for a minority).
Andres1511 Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Taiwanluthiers hits it. I pay my goverment so much, they have no other choice then investing a lot in ultra fast assistence. And yes, if I call the police, the police is there with in 5 minutes. Basically everywhere in Belgium, because it's so dense populated. This is really different in the US. And no, I don't believe everything my goverment says. But, yes, I'm really happy there a so few guns in this country. In this culture, we believe the goverment has the best for us. Because we elect them. Democracy right ? We also have a lot of parties here, so politicians really listen to the people (maybe a little too much sometime). EP laws are going a little too far for me, but that's because of my hobby... . It's intresting that in the US people see their goverment almost as something bad. Maybe we could use some more nationalities here, it could become really intresting. Nater, you're right. "helping yourself" is something a lot of people here lost, and that the average american can do so much better. That's a whole other discussion, also really intresting.
lloyd Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 It's intresting that in the US people see their goverment almost as something bad. Maybe we could use some more nationalities here, it could become really intresting.---------------Andres, It has COME to that, but only over the last few decades. We always thought of our government, also, as something duly 'selected' by the people. But it's become apparent that government's avarice for power has exceeded its service to the citizens. That's why many Americans now see government as "a bad thing". Everything in cycles. It will either worsen, or be rectified. We do have the power to do that here! LLoyd
nater Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Andres, you should understand something about American culture too. Aside from the native Indian population, we all came here to escape something. The colonists and frontiersman who survived were the strongest and self-reliant. These traits continue throughout the years and greatly influenced our culture. Unfortunately some of that attitude has been lost.
taiwanluthiers Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Also to be honest with you I'm much more afraid of a guy with a knife than with a gun. The few time I had a loaded gun pointed at me I wasn't scared at all but every time I see a knife, especially if held in a combat position it terrifies me (even if not being used against me). Fact is, you got a pretty good chance of surviving a gunshot, especially if it's a pistol. If you increase the distance or put stuff between you and the assailant that chance of survival increases. A guy with a gun is less likely to charge at you meaning chances are (esp. if the guy is not trained) he will miss. A knife attacker on the other hand always charge at you, and it means he won't miss and it will almost always be a vital organ. In fact if you're within 21 feet of a man with a knife best thing you can do is hand to hand tactic... drawing a gun in that instance will get you killed. If some thug draws a gun on you, you could actually just run, and chances are he'll miss (and if he fires a shot he draws attention to himself). Taiwan has extremely strict gun laws (capital punishment for having a gun), extremely dense population too. One time a guy with a knife killed 4 and injured 20 others in the subway. So you do not need a gun to kill a lot of people, but that never gets attention because somehow a knife is a tool but a gun is not (it's a tool for a lot of people too). It is interesting to note that Taiwan also has strict knife control laws too.
MrB Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 §1 People get into fights here as often as in the US. But we don't start shooting at eachother, because we don't have guns. When there are no guns nearby, when people see 2 men in a fight, they will try to get them apart. If they have knifes, which ofcourse happens, they don't stab eachother to dead in most of the cases. If you shoot one time with a gun, chance he's gonna die is pretty big. It's not that easy to stab someone to dead. It is easy to shoot someone dead. §2 About the criminals and illegal guns: criminals here seldom make the effort to buy a gun. Illegal guns are rare, very expensive, short on ammo. Because we have a good functioning police system. (In general). And because civilians don't carry guns, as a criminal you aren't impressed by them. So why would you need one, to shoot the police when they arrive ? That's an even worse idea. But okay, some criminals do have guns. So what, we should let civilians buy guns to let them protect against this criminals, and just take all the accidents that come along with them for granted ? Just so we could protect ourselve from the few criminals ? §3 Switserland: bad comparison. Really. All the men with those weapons have gone trough military training, and train every year. Every men in Switserland has been in the army. It's Switserland's way to have a strong army on "low" budget. §1 As weird as it may seam, it's a lot easier to kill someone with a knife, then with a gun. The difference is that it takes a bit of skill to make a shot lethal, while stabbing someone in the soft areas on the torso creates different amounts of damage that will cause your victim to bleed out fairly quickly. You have to look elsewhere to find the reason for the fewer killings, and i told you where before. The gangs have a quite different lifestyle in USA then they have pretty much anywhere else. Well, south of the border is somewhat similar, but we don't really count south-america for some reason. Almost like they aren't worth as much as "us". Anyway, the "gang mentality" they got going makes them a lot more prone to lethal violence, guns is just a convenient tool, not the cause. §2 I'm sorry, but, i can have a gun here in 20 minutes, if i want a brand new, unused, 9mm, unspecified brand or model, it may take a few hours. (you do want a new one, since a used one might have been used for any sort of activity) If i want a brand new, specific model, it's going to be a few weeks, even a couple of months if i get unlucky. As long as i stick to 9mm, ammo is plentiful, and if the availability of speer dot gold is any indication the source is quite... official. If you start heading outside the 9mm standard, (or cal.22) your going to have a harder time, but it's but no means hard. The short explanation is simply that people with questionable morals have gone and got them self permits for guns, and buy ammo, to resell, for a small profit. The end result is that a box of 20 .45 will cost you about 60-65 Euro. Somewhere around 2x what it retails for, but it has passed a few hands on the way. And it takes a lot longer to get the Desert Eagle (2-3 weeks) then to get the ammo. (a week) At this point it might be prudent to add that i'm by no means a part of the shady underworld. Yes, i know a few people, that knew a few people, but considering that they say you only need to "jump" from person to person 7 times to be able to reach anyone in the whole world... so do you. §3 No, it's a great comparison for exactly that reason. It over and over proves that it's not the guns, it's the people. It hammers home the point with precision. Governments seldom tell the truth. Uhu... Seldom? Thats an understatement. I think you just got awarded "the understatement of the year" award. Since the year also is over, i want to hand it over right now. *gives*Put it somewhere, and display it proudly. Americans on the other hand tend to have mistrust for their government and prefers to keep them on a tight leash, for good reason too. As crazy as it sounds it's also one reason why government conspiracies are so common here (but you'll almost never hear of government conspiracies in Europe, except for a minority). And yet, it was over here someone blew a government building up to get elected, and get an excuse to start a war. Yey Hit... No, not going there. Anyway, Us EU people have a lot more reasons to distrust our government then you guys have. Yet the people just nod and go "yes, god and state, amen" to a huge extent. But there is one thing that always mazed me... Echelon and similar, later surveillance techs aimed at "protecting America" is a HUGE violation of the peoples right for privacy, yet people aren't protesting it, not even when they get told whats going on. The American people are sleeping while their privacy is taken away, and soon they will find that they wont have time to use their weapons against the government if the need raises, the uniforms will be there to take care of the problem before it "gets out of hand". And if current events are anything to go by, them uniforms will shoot first, and ask questions later... Taiwanluthiers hits it. I pay my goverment so much, they have no other choice then investing a lot in ultra fast assistence. And yes, if I call the police, the police is there with in 5 minutes. Basically everywhere in Belgium, because it's so dense populated. This is really different in the US. Sweden. Being newyearseve and all. I was out driving, on my way in to city i passed a parking-lot with 5 cars on fire. I kept going, but dialed 112, emergency. It took 25 minutes to get to an operator, and when i passed by the same parked cars, the fire had spread, and burnt it self out, totaling around 50 cars. There wasn't a trace of firefighting at the scene, no foam, no powder, and the cars were still "neatly" in the spaces for parking. The closest fire-station is just over 2 minutes away... It was something like 2-3 hours between my first and second pass, but by the looks of it they sent a fire engine, that arrived to the scene after it burnt it self out. So they left without action. But thats just a guess. Call the cops, and your going to be waiting for an hour or two. Call for an ambulance, and if you needed it, your dead before it arrives. If you got better services, congratulations. You guys probably are the exception. It has COME to that, but only over the last few decades. We always thought of our government, also, as something duly 'selected' by the people. But it's become apparent that government's avarice for power has exceeded its service to the citizens. That's why many Americans now see government as "a bad thing". Governments everywhere has a flaw. They are made up by the people you really don't want there. People that seek power, is never there for the common good. They are there for the benefits THEY get. The forum doesn't like when you cut n' paste a lot of quotes.. So i had to retype this post 3 times to get a result i could live with. Not that i like how this turned out, but it's drawing near 7 in the morning, i'm giving up...B!
taiwanluthiers Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 The thing with a knife attack is that they are often lunging or charging at you, they are going to hit their mark, and they will have the chance to stab you multiple times, meaning your chance of survival is smaller. A person with a gun will stand there and try and shoot you, if they are untrained they will most likely miss. This give you time to run making it harder for them to hit you.
Sparx88 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Posted January 3, 2016 The thing with a knife attack is that they are often lunging or charging at you, they are going to hit their mark, and they will have the chance to stab you multiple times, meaning your chance of survival is smaller. A person with a gun will stand there and try and shoot you, if they are untrained they will most likely miss. This give you time to run making it harder for them to hit you.I would rather deal with a knife attacker because if they are close enough to stick you they are also close enough to get dealt with. Think pythons. Now if the knife guy is getting the better of me I can run and he will have a hard time stabbing and running and most likely not chase far if at all. But I always carry a nice blade myself. 4" fixed blade full tang with finger holes to help prevent getting it taken or knocked out of your hand...and not slice you hand up or slip. It has a pyramid shaped butt that extends 1 1/2" out from the hand for pummeling with hammer fist. Now I love guns, have them and enjoy them always. And will never give up the fight to keep them. I pray that I never have to kill someone. That guy did what our insticts tell us when you or someone you loves life in is danger. And if it takes more than a verbal command to cease, you have to go to the next level before they try and take advantage of your reluctance. He should not have been drunk though. Most of us know how alcohol can over rule our best intentions. I think it's awesome how it all turned out.
nater Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 He did not need to resort to such an extreme measure so quickly. In doing so, he not only endangered himself and the staff, but every other patient on the unit as well. The decision process to terminally wean a 27 year old would never be quick and would involve the family. I still question whether they were actually in that process to wean him or were still working to formulate a diagnosis and plan. People don't think right in times of crisis. Just this weekend, I almost got ran over by a distraught woman who was trying to drive her car across the sidewalk and into the path of an ambulance carrying her husband while performing CPR.
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