Substitute for KClO4 Flash

[ghost808]

Aloha,

 

Iʻve been working with flash for years and iʻve had a solid supplier but my supplier recently ran into shipping issues and legality in regards to sending KCLO4 to me in Hawaii. Itʻs sad, but living down here is probably the worst place when it comes to shipping costs and shipping any chemicals. Iʻve been fiddling with Compositions using KNO3 because thats the only readily available oxidizer that I can obtain. Has anyone had experience with other types of flash comps?

Its so hard because the perchlorate is used in way too many compositions of mine whether itʻd be stars, benzolift, whistle mix, and flash.

Basically Iʻm trying to find a solution that will provide the same type of sound, I know nothing will compare but iʻm trying to stay safe while still maintaining a great sound. Iʻve done permanganate but thatʻs probably one of the most unstable alongside KClO3. Does anyone have insight on this topic?

 

Thanks!

And Happy New Year

[lloyd]

Ghost,

KNO3-based flash can have problems, too... like nitrate/aluminum reactions.

 

You may be one of those folks who are candidates for setting up a KClO4 electrolysis rig. KCl (water softener 'salt' alternative) should be readily available there.

 

Lloyd

[ghost808]

Ghost,

KNO3-based flash can have problems, too... like nitrate/aluminum reactions.

 

You may be one of those folks who are candidates for setting up a KClO4 electrolysis rig. KCl (water softener 'salt' alternative) should be readily available there.

 

Lloyd

Iʻve definitely looked at that option, however, the yield versus time spent and supplies to get the rig going is to be troublesome, on top of that iʻm no chemist so if problems arise iʻm not sure where I could go. Iʻm sure with a bit more research I could easily whip one out. But thatʻs my last resort.

[Wiley]

Ghost, I've found that a 2:1:1 ratio of KNO3:Sulfur:dark Al can make a nice bang. I made some low-lifted perc salutes for daytime use last July, and I happened to have some old ones using that nitrate mix that I wanted to get rid of. When fired separately, there wasn't really a discernible difference. Those were only about 25g devices, so you may start to notice more of a difference as things get larger, but those salutes gave plenty of bang. Also, if you make a long-body salute with this stuff, settle it well, and ignite it from one end, you should get a blinding white fireball that stays lit for at least a few milliseconds longer than the perc flash would. Pretty cool at twilight.

[lloyd]

Containment will be more important with nitrate flash than with perc-based.

 

The "critical mass" - that mass that will explode with a report WITHOUT containment - is far, FAR greater with a nitrate flash than with chlorate or perchlorate flashes.

 

(I make one perc flash that has a critical mass of under 1/3 gram! Really... an 'open' pile of 1/3 of one gram will explode with a loud report! <G>)

 

Lloyd

Edited December 29, 2015 by lloyd

[Andres1511]

Can you obtain another perchlorate salt or a perchlorate acid (very unlikely but you never now). With some luck you can make KP that way.

[Merlin]

http://www.thepyrotechnician.com/tuts/perchlorate.txt

 

I could do this procedure you don't have to be a chemist. It would need to be scaled up to meet your needs.

[Merlin]

Have you tried other suppliers? According to Google potassium chlorate is use to enhance flower production in off season in Hawaii. Chlorate is more dangerous than perchlorate but it is fair simple to convert chlorate to perchlorate

www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org pr...

[OblivionFall]

Dude... you might be one of the only pyros in Hawaii... or the only pyro...

 

I go up to Hawaii (Mauii or Kawaii) for spring break, christmas break etc. and meet up with some friends of mine. They say that, because there are no fireworks in Hawaii, they buy a bunch of flare gun reloads and shoot those around.

 

What part of Hawaii are you in?

 

Going back to the topic of flash: KNO3:Al:S with 1% Boric Acid added is a good substitute and gives a deeper boom. You just need to confine it more. Black Powder with 10% Aluminum powder added to it actually works very well given you have enough confinement.

[taiwanluthiers]

Hawaii doesn't allow a lot of things... very anti gun and anti just about anything that's fun. I got a friend living in Hawaii who loves guns that hates the rule (I tell him to move but he said his family is there...)

 

I done some slow flash a few times, mainly for boosting shells. I got no idea how dangerous they are though but it almost sounds as if they're more dangerous than perchlorate flash.

 

You can very easily make potassium chlorate with MMO anodes, a piece of titanium, and potassium chloride salts. Problem is thus far I have not been able to really make potassium perchlorate even with LD and platinum anodes (I destroyed a few using the computer power supply). I suppose you could try and make chlorate flash... has almost the same power (if not more, as in less self containment mass) but it may be very dangerous. I think there is another way to convert potassium chlorate to perchlorate, it's by heating them and holding them at a temperature where the stuff melts but not quite. It sounds dangerous so I have not tried it.

 

In any case I was able to end up with pounds and pounds of potassium chlorate with no idea what to do with them...

Edited December 29, 2015 by taiwanluthiers

[Mumbles]

Taiwanluthier, no body brought up guns and it has really nothing to do with this topic. This is the type of stuff people mean when they say off topic.

 

Merlin, that's not a very good tutorial on how to make perchlorate. If it's making anything, it will be mostly chlorate. It's not the absolutely worst tutorial I've ever read, but it reminds me of something out of the Anarchist's Cookbook.

 

If you want to learn how to make perchlorates, I'd grab some coffee and take a read through this thread: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/1629-making-potassium-per-chlorate/ It's long, but has a lot of good information. You may want to read the blogs uploaded by a member named WSM here. They're fantastic, and copies of articles he's written for the PGI bulletin. It's mostly chlorate, but there is some perchlorate specific information in the thread, and in the blogs I believe.

[ghost808]

Dude... you might be one of the only pyros in Hawaii... or the only pyro...

 

I go up to Hawaii (Mauii or Kawaii) for spring break, christmas break etc. and meet up with some friends of mine. They say that, because there are no fireworks in Hawaii, they buy a bunch of flare gun reloads and shoot those around.

 

What part of Hawaii are you in?

 

Going back to the topic of flash: KNO3:Al:S with 1% Boric Acid added is a good substitute and gives a deeper boom. You just need to confine it more. Black Powder with 10% Aluminum powder added to it actually works very well given you have enough confinement.

There are a few out there probably not more than 15 that actually make fireworks. Iʻve seen a few large whistle rockets with a hefty payload go up back in the day but other than that most people are idiots just making bombs haha. Iʻm on Oʻahu btw.

 

 

Has anyone had experience using Barium Nitrate as an oxidizer. Iʻm guessing its pretty stable compared to other compositions but confirmation would be nice. Iʻve also seen some strontium nitrate used however the ignition could be pose a problem. Iʻll probably resort to those strange flash powders but maybe I can manage to get some nice colors without perchlorates.

[lloyd]

Actually, commercial close-prox and stage "flash pot powder" and/or "concussion powder" is most-often made from Strontium nitrate and Magnesium or very fine Mg/Al. Without a chlorine donor, it burns pure white and very fast.

 

It must be kept scrupulously dry, and is usually supplied as plastic-bottled 'binaries', to be mixed just before use.

 

It requires more confinement than perc-based flash, and is usually used (for concussion noise) in very heavily-made steel guns, with lots of gaffers' tape closing the muzzles. It's easy to ignite.

 

LLoyd

[schroedinger]

With Bariumnitrate yiu can make either 4/2/1 (Ba, Al, S) or 1:1 with Mg.

[schroedinger]

Something else you can think about is 1:1 Mg:Barium sulphate.This gives a nice deep sound with a green flash.

[Eyegasm]

With regard to the chlorate/perchlorate synthesis topic. They key considerations on an electrolysis rig are temperature and testing. During the electrolysis, the temperature must not fall below 70°C or you risk making chlorine gas and bleach. Chlorate/perchlorate testing of the product is best done with the old sugar test and the reagent test with methylene . If you have perchlorate the methylene blue will turn deep violet. When doing the sugar test with sulfuric acid as the initiator, the perchlorate will favor the dehydration of the sugar/ product mix into carbon as opposed to ignition and deflagration when the product is or is contaminated with chlorate. The process can take up to 5 or 6 days and the amperage/temperature a situation must be carefully controlled. AND a byproduct is hydrogen gas. On it's own has a detonation velocity of almost 4,000 m/s. A little more than ANFO. If the reactor gets too cool it will mutate to a chlor-alkali cell and produce chlorine gas and potassium hydroxide. It's not a huge thing to run an electrolytic cell, but when you start playing with chemistry and creating compounds, the details can be real important. I know a police officer who had to work a case where some teenager watched too much you tube and gassed himself in his bedroom.

[schroedinger]

Eye test are better run with methylene blue and indigo carmine as test reagents.

[MrB]

With regard to the chlorate/perchlorate synthesis topic. They key considerations on an electrolysis rig are temperature and testing. During the electrolysis, the temperature must not fall below 70°C or you risk making chlorine gas and bleach. Chlorate/perchlorate testing of the product is best done with the old sugar test and the reagent test with methylene . If you have perchlorate the methylene blue will turn deep violet. When doing the sugar test with sulfuric acid as the initiator, the perchlorate will favor the dehydration of the sugar/ product mix into carbon as opposed to ignition and deflagration when the product is or is contaminated with chlorate. The process can take up to 5 or 6 days and the amperage/temperature a situation must be carefully controlled. AND a byproduct is hydrogen gas. On it's own has a detonation velocity of almost 4,000 m/s. A little more than ANFO. If the reactor gets too cool it will mutate to a chlor-alkali cell and produce chlorine gas and potassium hydroxide. It's not a huge thing to run an electrolytic cell, but when you start playing with chemistry and creating compounds, the details can be real important. I know a police officer who had to work a case where some teenager watched too much you tube and gassed himself in his bedroom.

 

You, are in the wrong thread. Also, by all accounts so far, some / most of your text is wrong, but that might be a misunderstanding on my part. I suggest you head to the (per)chlorate thread instead. It's quite a massive read, at 188 pages, so i linked to the last one... Well, currently, and with my forum settings, i suppose. Anyway, your input is very welcome, this is a case where more chefs is a good thing.

B!

[Eyegasm]

In reading what I posted I kind of did a bad job of writing that post. I also see your point about being in the right forum. As far as the chemistry goes, much of it is information I have gathered from chemists I know. It could be prejudicial or opinionated, as The chemists I know have strong opinions on what is safe and what isn't. So far I have never produced bleach following their recommendations. I should probably also add that the sugar deflation test with HCl or H2SO4 was recommended to me as a way to test for Chlorate contamination of perchlorate. If my information is wrong I am always happy to be corrected. I love to learn new facts and procedures.

[schroedinger]

The test certainly works, but it is not very sensitive and quite complicated.

The test with indigocarmine only needs some stock solution made up once (my are 3 years old and still work). The test itself takes just a minute, including taking a sample and washing up (or get a bag of pcr tubes and discarde them after the test, thats cheaper then washing test tubes).

 

Here you can read up on some tests:

http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/campus/5361/chlorate/tests.html

[Eyegasm]

I honestly never thought to look past methylene blue and sugar for a better test method. I guess I got complacent that the tests did what they were supposed to and the comps worked, and then got lazy. Now that you mention that I have to ask. I heard of a test with indigocarbamine once, but I can't remember exactly what it was supposed to test for. It wasn't in the context of an oxidizer though. We were talking about how to differentiate between residues from tetryl and picric acid, and the village brainiac walked in and gave a 30 minute lecture about a test involving indigocarbamine and how it can differentiate residues. I wish I knew what he said exactly. Back then I was just happy to know if it it was Jihadi Joe or some Albanian farmer pissed at his neighbor. Now a days I wish I remember those little factoids. I'm sure at least one person reading this knows exactly what I mean.