Veline Prime

[DonCopal]

Hey there, I'd like to make some Veline star prime. Do I need to add the potassium dichromate? I'd rather not like it because it's so toxic.

[lloyd]

Don,

Potassium dichromate is NOT horribly toxic nor carcinogenic unless you ingest it or breath the dust with some regularity.

 

Offset printing press operators worked with it for their entire careers without ill effects. And there are many pyro chemicals you handle regularly with assumed safety that are MORE toxic than potassium dichromate.

 

One needs only practice ordinary shop hygiene to be safe: Use a respirator and gloves, and wash up before eating or smoking.

 

And use the dichromate... it's there to suppress undesirable reactions that are FAR more dangerous to your health than the dichromate that suppresses them!

 

LLoyd

Edited December 19, 2015 by lloyd

[DonCopal]

I don't use respirators, but I just wanted to know wheter it's neccessary at all. So, in this case, I'll use it, I'm not really afraid of working with it, it's just that in the EU it's not available anymore so I wanted to keep the small amount I still have for something else.

Edited December 19, 2015 by DonCopal

[mabuse00]

 

it's there to suppress undesirable reactions that are FAR more dangerous to your health than the dichromate that suppresses them!

I don't think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the dichromate in the veline prime acts as a catalyst.

 

Since it's added as a powder I cannot protect the magnalium anyway.

Also the veline system has no imcompatibilities that would require such a thing.

 

 

Concerning the veline prime in general, I'm not very fond of it. I uses a lot of perchlorate, which is hard to get/expensive for us europeans, and and doesn't do anything that BP/silicon cannot.

 

If BP silicon is not satisfactory, my next step is pinball prime.

 

Or this here (from the spanish pdf):

 

0.45 Potassium perchlorate

0.30 Potassium nitrate

0.06 Sulfur

0.06 Red gum

0.15 Charcoal, airfloat Poplar

0.18 Magnalium, 63-micron, 230-mesh

0.05 Dextrin (if you are using water or water+alcohol as the solvent)

1.25 Total

Edited December 19, 2015 by mabuse00

[lloyd]

Yeah... well my favorite 'hot' prime is Pinball, too... <G>

 

On this: "Since it's added as a powder I cannot protect the magnalium anyway."

 

No, that's not the case with a water-solvated binder system. Many commercial manufacturers who have aluminum/nitrate products, or who employ magnesium in formulae use dichromate milled-in with oxidizers. More of them tend to use dichromate solution for wetting, and that IS the 'better' protection, but the fine powder serves the same effect, even if it is to a lesser degree.

 

As far as the catalytic effects... well, sure it does that, but I don't think that's its intent. Fast burn is not a beneficial thing in a prime, and I'm betting Dave (who's a member of our local guild) would say the same. My opinion is that one wants primes to burn more slowly than black powder, and 'dirtily', so that they leave lots of molten slag on the surface, instead of just "flashing off" the surface.

 

Lloyd

[DonCopal]

I use BP/Magnalium instead of silicon as an outer prime around the Veline prime normally. So, for Veline stars, do you think it's enough to use just the BP/MgAl without any other prime?

@Mabuse: Wir könnten eigentlich auch über's Xplo deutsch reden

Edited December 19, 2015 by DonCopal

[lloyd]

I'll be honest and say that even on the Veline formula, I've never used Bob's prime. So I really couldn't tell you if it would be 'enough'.

 

I was just as comfortable with Pinball if I needed something hotter than rough-mix, and in-between is rough-mix with a touch of fine aluminum added.

 

Lloyd

Edited December 20, 2015 by lloyd

[DonCopal]

Ok, I think I'll stay with using the Veline + BP/Magnalium as it always worked fine for me.

[Peret]

I don't use Veline's prime any more. I did to begin with, but had a couple of problems. One, it didn't light the greens very well, and two, I objected to the bright white flare from the magnalium. I use silicon prime now for everything - 40% BP, 40% KNO3, 20% silicon. I like the simplicity of that formula.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Peret

[DaMounty]

For my veline stars I dusted them with Monocapa (sp?) right after cutting followed by another dusting of green mix once dry

 

DaM

[Seymour]

Lloyd, you are MUCH more experienced than me and you are also better linked in with the US (and perhaps international) pyrotechnics scene, and this is just part of why I respect what you say a lot. This may be a bit strange to you, but I've been aware of your existence and your contribution to fireworks since my early teens, and in a way it is an honour for me to be asking you questions, and having you state that I'm saying things that are not quite true or doing things that are probably more dangerous than I realise.

 

I've only used dichromate to reduce reactions between Ammonium perchlorate and Mg or MgAl. I have previously stated that it was not necessary in prime, and do not consider it a safe feature, though if I am wrong on this, I would of course like to change my opinion.

 

I also work with MgAl in compositions on a commercial scale, and of course this does not make me an expert on safest practice, but I've never seen MgAl react in ordinary pyro compositions oxidised by KNO3, KClO4 and Ba(NO3)2, including tonnes of stars with water activated stars.

 

Of course I am well aware that the nitrate / aluminium reaction also occurs with MgAl, and to a greater extent. For this reason I have made very few KNO3/MgAl mixes that have been wetted with water, especially in commercial quantities, though with Barium nitrate I have.

 

However the Veline prime contains dichromate but NO nitrate. Other than cross contamination from a final prime, or nitrate from inside the star being primed (or other substances that MgAl reacts with in the presence of water (for of course nitrate and Ammonium perchlorate are but two of many), I do not understand how the Potassium dichromate can be a safety feature in this context.

 

Is it simply just to stop the MgAl reacting with water, and has nothing to do with the specific chemicals in this composition? Or am I missing something here?

 

On the topic of catalyst use in primes, I fully understand what you are saying about there being no advantage to primes burning extra fast, and the benefit of slightly slaggy qualities for igniting stars, but this is not the reason that I identify catalysts being of benefit in primes. Of course primes should not only light things, but be easy to light. Certainly with all that charcoal a BP type mix for a final prime will have no trouble lighting these types of KP primes, and I do not use catalyst in prime. I do however see it as a theoretical benefit, especially if one was to try to use the KP prime alone and not have a final BP prime, which I see as a minimal benefit which I do not aim for myself

Edited December 23, 2015 by Seymour

[lloyd]

Seymore, perhaps you're correct.

 

Lloyd

[lloyd]

I didn't finish that thought.

 

You may be correct, but in almost all cases, 'hot' primes like that are finally coated with rough powder. There's nitrate in my rough powder. Maybe there isn't in yours.

 

Lloyd

[schroedinger]

SonCopal get some silicon, it is a much better solution then mg/al.

For veline stars bp/Si is a good prime. No need to use perc based prime on them. The veline prime also works good without the dicromate.

But you say you don't use a respirator? Fix that, a 3M respirator costs 30 and is about the perfect soljtion you can find. Take one off thee 6000 series. Like this that shows of first if you search german amazon: : http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00EJIMZT8, it is only clas a2p2 witch is good for most things but for solvents. You should upgrade it with some 3m 6055 carbon filters and use it with the filter caps and filter wadding (rough particle filter pads). If you are willing to spend 10 more you straight take a 7500 like this: http://www.amazon.de/dp/B0024QR4K2(a2p3 set that allready contains all you need) and you only worry about the new filters every 2 to 3 years again. This mask is very good suited to work with for multiple hours without becomming uncomfortable or super wet. It is better to work then with one of the normal white dusk masks from the hardware store.

But saving on a mask is one of the worst thing you can do. Specially when you are going dor greens you have no choice.

 

Also if you lie the pastell color of the veline comps, you can enhance that effect by substitution of parlon with pvc. This way you also get rid of the yellow burning flakes that parln likes to produce.

Edited December 24, 2015 by schroedinger

[lloyd]

"But you say you don't use a respirator? Fix that..."

-----------

Amen, Schroedinger!

 

L

[DonCopal]

The potassium dichromate I have is not very fine and does not make any dust. But anyways, I'll think of buying a mask.

[lloyd]

Don,

It MUST be fine powder if you're to add it dry to any composition.

 

Ordinarily, it is milled with the oxidizer in order to get good incorporation.

 

Merry Christmas, BTW!

 

Lloyd

[schroedinger]

If it isn't milled in, you can also put it into your water that you use for wetting. But that resulting liquor is still quite nasty stuff.

And Don don't think about buying a respirator, buy it. You won't regret it.

Just imagine you are going over to making green stars and use barium nitrate. You propably know ned gorski, he once made a video on how to make ba nitrate stars and skipped the respirator, so that he was good to understand, next day he was sick and reported that he showed symtoms of barium poisoning. You don't want that to happen to you? Also theremare quite a couple other chems that we use that can give you several different symtoms. It allready starts with fine charcoal.

[MrB]

There are other issues, aside from poisoning related to working without a good air filtering device. Small particles that end up in your lungs end up giving you chronic obstructive pulmonary disease regardless of how benign they are. And you should always wear eye protection as well. Abrasive stuff scuffs the cornea, and in serious (rare) cases may cause permanent damage, and not just a short term passing nuisance.

B!

[DonCopal]

Well, I'll get a respirator then.

[Mumbles]

I've had mild barium poisoning as well. Not fun. I cannot recommend a respirator enough. I'd suggest a real respirator with replaceable filters over those paper face masks, but anything is better than nothing.

 

I was transferring barium nitrate out of the sack it comes in, and repackaging it into smaller containers in my work area. I was wearing gloves and a respirator. I had cleaned up, wiped everything down, and had taken off my gloves and respirator. As I was putting it away, I dropped one of the bags a few inches onto my work bench. The bag ended up having a small pin hole in it, and puffed up a small cloud of barium which I inhaled. Things can happen even with the best intentions.

[bigbuck]

has anyone had any luck with fencepost followed by bp scratch mix for veline prime? i seen it mentioned above,i have some fencepost i need to use and just so happen to have veline stars that need primed, just curious on ignition rate with fencepost

[Raceman17]

I use fence post with all the veline colors and haven't had any issues with stars being blown blind. I make 3" shells with BP coated rice hulls as burst with 4 grams of whistle as a booster. I don't use BP prime over the fence post. YMMV

[braddsn]

I will chime in with my .02.. Most colors (not all) will light perfectly with "bp" prime only. By "bp" prime I mean fencepost, scratch mix bp, bp+silicon, bp+DE, etc. The more experience I gain in pyro, the more I find that more times than not, people have problems with ignition because of the AMOUNT of prime they are using, not as much the type. Lay it on thick! 1-1.5mm thick at least. I use bp+silicon+DE at 1.5" thick on most of my stars, and on the harder lighting colors I use .5mm monocapa (or a hot prime) followed by the 1-1.5mm bp prime. This goes for Veline, Shimizu, Spanish, or any other formulas out there. Finally there are comps that require step priming, like white flitter (difficult to light).

[NeighborJ]

I have never considered veline to be difficult to light. Having had success with bp with silicon, however recently I've found that using certain kinds of perc with anti cake to make them problematic. Quality of chems plays a big part in ignition of stars. Edited September 29, 2016 by NeighborJ